Author Topic: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY  (Read 54903 times)

Online Yehuda57

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #280 on: May 31, 2022, 08:33:48 PM »
I can sense that there's much going on between the lines.  And that this must be an unusually brilliant family, if someone can start from no secular education yet write as fluently as they do. 
But the articles indicate that at least some adults who graduated from no-secular-studies yeshivas are dissatisfied with their education.  How common is this?

Many adults are dissatisfied with their parents for any number of reasons. That doesn't mean the state should have necessarily had the right to interfere.

As it happens, anecdotally, plenty of Yeshivah graduates do exceedingly well in a multitude of fields, and the Newfields are far from an anomaly.

Personally, I don't have a high school diploma, didn't learn English past seventh grade, and I make a living as a copywriter. I've worked with college grads who have degrees in English or whatnot and and with fellow Yeshivah grads with even less English education than I had, and ime a secular education has virtually no correlation to being able to "write fluently".

I've been party to correspondence from CEOs of companies worth tens of millions, and their writing is worse than my 10 year old daughter's by a long shot. Does this mean they had a bad education? No, they are over educated if anything.

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #281 on: May 31, 2022, 08:40:19 PM »

Personally, I don't have a high school diploma, didn't learn English past seventh grade, and I make a living as a copywriter. I've worked with college grads who have degrees in English or whatnot and and with fellow Yeshivah grads with even less English education than I had, and ime a secular education has virtually no correlation to being able to "write fluently".

So why would you oppose requiring yeshivas to test their students to show that they're able to write fluent English?

Offline ExGingi

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #282 on: May 31, 2022, 08:43:48 PM »
So why would you oppose requiring yeshivas to test their students to show that they're able to write fluent English?

Because it's unimportant at that stage in their lives. For some it might never be important, and for others a time might come when it will be important and they will gain the mastery they need at the level they need and are capable of, without wasting countless hours during formative years.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

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I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline yelped

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #284 on: May 31, 2022, 08:52:00 PM »
What percentage of the population has any use for learning biology?
Probably less than basic plumbing and electric, but they are all useful and all good to know at least at a basic level. All knowledge can be used to advance Torah and a Torah lifestyle. The government getting mixed in will just be detrimental, though.

Online aygart

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #285 on: May 31, 2022, 08:53:19 PM »
So why would you oppose requiring yeshivas to test their students to show that they're able to write fluent English?
You are getting stuck in the nitty gritty and missing the overarching concept that they are opposed to.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline biobook

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Offline Euclid

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #287 on: May 31, 2022, 09:11:13 PM »
Go convince that to the millionaires in Lakewood.
Much, much easier when your first language is English.

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #288 on: May 31, 2022, 09:19:58 PM »
Much, much easier when your first language is English.
There is no excuse for neglecting to teach basic skills.

Offline gozalim

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #289 on: May 31, 2022, 09:28:39 PM »
So why would you oppose requiring yeshivas to test their students to show that they're able to write fluent English?
that's not what this is about, or what's being proposed.
as has been mentioned multiple times in this thread.
are you purposely pretending not to know that?

Online Yehuda57

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #290 on: May 31, 2022, 09:30:54 PM »

So why would you oppose requiring yeshivas to test their students to show that they're able to write fluent English?

I didn't say all Yeshivah graduates can write well. Many can't. The same can be said for public school graduates.

But to answer the question: Personally, I don't believe it to be a necessary part of my child's education. (I'd much rather my son learned how to write Yiddish in school.) Imparting academic knowledge is a small incidental part of what I believe education should be.

Education is first and foremost about teaching how to connect and live with the Eibishter, or, put differently, teaching morality.

To the extent they need to, my kids will figure English out with or without school. Just like their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents did.

Globally, I don't trust the state to decide any part of a *private* school's curriculum at all.

You seem to be coming at this from reading this Agudah letter and thinking it's fear mongering. It may be, but consider these new regulations weren't made in a vacuum.

The activists who got this going have proposed numerous regulations in the past, and they aren't stopping here. This is perhaps the furthest they've gone. In their zeal to give every Chossid a secular education, they've proposed minimum times to devote to secular subjects that even modern Orthodox day schools would not meet. Teachers have to be certified in ways that would eliminate a massive amount of teachers, and numerous other rules that would essentially end the Yeshivah system as we know it - even for those that do teach secular studies.

And all this because of what? A relatively miniscule amount of graduates who are bitter. There is zero evidence that Yeshivah graduates are any more a drain on welfare programs and society at large than the average public school graduate. On the contrary, the community's in-built welfare system alleviates much of the strain on government programs.

I'm fact, the uneducated, poverty stricken Hasids maintain a pretty high standard of living, and have to pay tuition costs that would cripple the average American family.

It's anecdotal, but take a drive out of Jewish Crown Heights where most boys graduate with little if any secular studies, and drive in virtually any direction and look at the policing, medical and other infrastructure that is needed to support the neighboring areas. We don't have entire "school safety" departments in the police force to keep our children safe. The most harmful thing my son has experienced thus far is learning baby shark from some kid on the bus.

You want your kids to learn biology? Gezunterheit. But if you want to force me to teach my kids biology or have me liable to be arrested, you better have a damn good reason for that, and plenty of evidence that I'm handicapping my children's future. The large amount of medical professionals among people who had no secular education belies the need for elementary or high school biology.

And lest you think it's not a problem because they wouldn't possibly arrest someone for this, that's not a risk anyone should be comfortable with, and it's enough if a problem that such a thing is even possible.

Online Ver hut gazugt

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #291 on: May 31, 2022, 09:31:26 PM »
There is no excuse for neglecting to teach basic skills.
what do you call “basic skills” ?

Offline drosenberg88429

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #292 on: May 31, 2022, 09:48:29 PM »
You're nit-picking at minor details that don't even exist. 
This is how it works:  NYS says it's important to teach biology, with an outline of a general curriculum.
Yeshiva tells its students: You'll study biology, but we're not going to cover this chapter on evolution, which makes up 5% of the curriculum.  So the maximum you'll get on the Biology Regents will probably be 95%.  Oh well.
You're equating learning biology to lacking ruchniyus.  Why are they incompatible?
I would say 100%.  What do you think?

I would say 0% (rounded to nearest whole number) of people have a need to learn evolution.

Even without being taught reproductive biology (a more pertinent portion of the curriculum that is often skipped over, if biology is being taught at all), I would say the average attendee of these august institutions seem to be more quantitatively successful than the average citizen at that particular art. It seems that knowledge which is truly necessary for life is generally picked up without the government's assistance.

I actually took biology, and learnt that a male cannot become pregnant. My education keeping within the standard curriculum seems to have rendered me politically incorrect and bigoted by left wing standards.

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #293 on: May 31, 2022, 09:53:53 PM »
that's not what this is about, or what's being proposed.
as has been mentioned multiple times in this thread.
are you purposely pretending not to know that?
The regulations proposed say that yeshivas can show that their education meets the standards by having their students pass tests in those subjects.  It's not clear to me why Aguda would oppose this.  They say "implementation is unclear", but that's not a reason to oppose it in principle.

Offline drosenberg88429

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #294 on: May 31, 2022, 09:56:31 PM »
It worked, in that students who studied a state-regulated curriculum and passed the NYS regents were not impeded from attaining a religious education.  Even becoming rabbanim, roshei yeshiva and the like.  Even working at Agudah.  It is not true that we can't "be mechanech our children according to our mesorah" if they learn secular subjects.

There's no one "our mesorah". Different factions have different religious beliefs and philosophies when it comes to this area. One of the most basic tenets of freedom of religion is that a religion does not have to have only one uniform standard amongst all members of the religion to be covered by the bill of rights. As long as there is a recognized authority on the religion that can vouch for the belief or practice espoused to be within the individuals religious beliefs, it is constitutionally protected. Your personal religious beliefs do not delegitimize the beliefs or religious concerns of anyone who may believe differently than yourself.

An argument between us about which hashkafa is superior is completely and utterly irrelevant to this discussion. Freedom of religion is about protecting another's right to practice even if it is not your personal practice or belief system.

Offline drosenberg88429

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #295 on: May 31, 2022, 10:01:36 PM »
The regulations proposed say that yeshivas can show that their education meets the standards by having their students pass tests in those subjects.  It's not clear to me why Aguda would oppose this.  They say "implementation is unclear", but that's not a reason to oppose it in principle.

For the same reason that litvishe aakanim who do not practice metzitza bpeh fought tooth and nail against the government regulating bris milah for those that do. The Agudah is opposed in principle to the government having the power to modify our educational system, when it has been evidenced with a great deal of data that the average graduate of the system is empowered with the tools needed for an objectively successful life.

Online YitzyS

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #296 on: May 31, 2022, 10:01:56 PM »
I think many here missed the most crucial aspect of this conversation.

The issue is not the actual level of education. The issue is that the NYSED has the power to inject what they want in our education. You can argue from today until next Wednesday about the merit of what NYSED is proposing. But bottom line, if they are allowed oversight powers over yeshivos, nothing is stopping them from coming along next week and forcing us to implement a whole slew of woke liberalism into our curriculum.

The message we are sending with our signatures is that they should back off. We don't need them to be the arbitrators of education in yeshivos.

Is there a need for better education in secular matters? And if yes, what is the most effect method to assure that it's implemented? Those are part of an age old debate, and it could be the subject of a robust debate - on a different thread. But the primary focus of this campaign is to set the precedent that government education officials have no say in how we run our yeshivos.

And that is something that anyone with foresight who respects daas Torah should be able to agree with.

ETA: I see that drosenberg88429 hit the nail on the head in the last post.

Offline drosenberg88429

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #297 on: May 31, 2022, 10:07:24 PM »
CMIIW, but my understanding is that most graduates of the yeshiva system have had a secular education that would meet most of the standards currently proposed.  There are a small minority of yeshivas that do not provide a secular education to boys.  Has anyone studied how much those graduates use social and welfare services?

The average Lakewood and chassidish boys high school does not have a formal secular education system that would meet any governmental standards. It is well known that the average income per worker amongst those who decide to participate in the work force (deciding not to participate in order to follow ones beliefs is also a perfectly valid choice, as much as being a homemaker or academic researcher or conservationist is) is way above the national median or even average salary. I don't think anyone is disputing that.

Offline drosenberg88429

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #298 on: May 31, 2022, 10:17:56 PM »
I can sense that there's much going on between the lines.  And that this must be an unusually brilliant family, if someone can start from no secular education yet write as fluently as they do. 
But the articles indicate that at least some adults who graduated from no-secular-studies yeshivas are dissatisfied with their education.  How common is this?

How common is it for people to be brought up as devout Catholics with a strong religious focus on extramarital relationship abstention and purity to be dissatisfied with their upbringing in that regard? Does that make it illegal to educate your children with those beliefs?

One of the most fundamental elements of freedom of religion is the right to educate your children with the upbringing and beliefs as you see fit, unless it can be proven to be egregiously damaging and harmful to the childs well-being and future. If it can be known with near certainty that the vast majority of people would feel crippled by their upbringing when they reach adulthood, then the state can intervene in the fiduciary interest of the child and transfer custodianship.

I don't know the exact definition of a cult or devastatingly damaging upbringing that the child must be saved from. What I do know is that any sane person would agree that this ain't it. The vast majority of people are pretty satisfied with the community and upbringing when they reach adulthood, and do not walk away even when given the chance. Compared to almost any other community or culture in America, we have a remarkably low attrition rate. Even those that would say that denying a sick child any medical intervention due to one's religious beliefs is abusive and warrants loss of custody wouldn't say such a thing about our Yeshivos.

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #299 on: May 31, 2022, 10:19:54 PM »
You can argue from today until next Wednesday about the merit of what NYSED is proposing.
No, just from now till midnight, which is the deadline for submitting a letter about the proposal.