Author Topic: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY  (Read 54904 times)

Offline drosenberg88429

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2020
  • Posts: 591
  • Total likes: 1144
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #300 on: May 31, 2022, 10:22:10 PM »

I know you're not allowed to +1 anymore, but 👌👌👌👏👏👏

Offline gozalim

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 4308
  • Total likes: 821
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #301 on: May 31, 2022, 10:24:25 PM »
No, just from now till midnight, which is the deadline for submitting a letter about the proposal.
wait. you're trying to encourage, or discourage people from submitting letters?

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 31016
  • Total likes: 7975
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #302 on: May 31, 2022, 10:26:56 PM »
I can sense that there's much going on between the lines.  And that this must be an unusually brilliant family, if someone can start from no secular education yet write as fluently as they do. 
But the articles indicate that at least some adults who graduated from no-secular-studies yeshivas are dissatisfied with their education.  How common is this?

Yup, they’re brilliant, and thus not necessarily representative, but at the same time there are many such exceptions. My English is far from perfect but it isn’t all that bad for a formal education that didn’t teach me the English alphabet or how to count my fingers, and I have a career in software development.

As for the dissatisfaction, the dissatisfied voices will always be louder, and the vocal dissatisfaction is oftentimes not related to the educational content itself (or lack thereof).
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 1400
  • Total likes: 1692
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #303 on: May 31, 2022, 10:27:23 PM »
wait. you're trying to encourage, or discourage people from submitting letters?
Neither.  I'm trying to write a letter myself, and finding that the Agudah's arguments don't convince me, so bouncing ideas around here.

Offline gozalim

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 4308
  • Total likes: 821
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #304 on: May 31, 2022, 10:33:48 PM »
Neither.  I'm trying to write a letter myself, and finding that the Agudah's arguments don't convince me, so bouncing ideas around here.
from your beliefs as expressed in this thread, you probably have best chances of agreeing with this type of content:
I think many here missed the most crucial aspect of this conversation.

The issue is not the actual level of education. The issue is that the NYSED has the power to inject what they want in our education. You can argue from today until next Wednesday about the merit of what NYSED is proposing. But bottom line, if they are allowed oversight powers over yeshivos, nothing is stopping them from coming along next week and forcing us to implement a whole slew of woke liberalism into our curriculum.

The message we are sending with our signatures is that they should back off. We don't need them to be the arbitrators of education in yeshivos.

Is there a need for better education in secular matters? And if yes, what is the most effect method to assure that it's implemented? Those are part of an age old debate, and it could be the subject of a robust debate - on a different thread. But the primary focus of this campaign is to set the precedent that government education officials have no say in how we run our yeshivos.

And that is something that anyone with foresight who respects daas Torah should be able to agree with.

ETA: I see that drosenberg88429 hit the nail on the head in the last post.
see the end of Dr. Aumann's article as well

Offline Euclid

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 5039
  • Total likes: 6190
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #305 on: May 31, 2022, 10:47:00 PM »
My English is far from perfect but it isn’t all that bad for a formal education that didn’t teach me the English alphabet or how to count my fingers, and I have a career in software development.
well all you need to know are 1s and 0s

Offline Ephcc90

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 565
  • Total likes: 21
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Far Rockaway
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #306 on: May 31, 2022, 10:50:33 PM »
Neither.  I'm trying to write a letter myself, and finding that the Agudah's arguments don't convince me, so bouncing ideas around here.
http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/6296d3d65e8b7/Comment%20from%2068%20Harvard%20Law%20and%20K-12%20Yeshiva%20Graduates%20to%20Proposed%20NYSED%20Regulations.pdf
Here’s a more nuanced letter for reference.

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 1400
  • Total likes: 1692
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #307 on: May 31, 2022, 10:51:02 PM »
from your beliefs as expressed in this thread, you probably have best chances of agreeing with this type of content:see the end of Dr. Aumann's article as well
You mean this part?

"The government has no right to dictate how we run our schools. But as my affidavit indicates, it does have a right to see to it that all children get a basic secular education that will enable them to be productive members of society. And that is also the Halacha.

This can be achieved in several ways. One is to allow the state to test the children in agreed-upon subjects and at agreed-upon levels. This was suggested in the original draft of the affidavit, but was removed at the lawyers’ request. It is still my preferred option, because it directly motivates each yeshiva to provide the appropriate education."
https://www.algemeiner.com/2019/10/03/yeshivas-must-be-held-accountable-to-provide-a-secular-education/

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 31016
  • Total likes: 7975
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #308 on: May 31, 2022, 10:51:55 PM »
You can argue from today until next Wednesday about the merit of what NYSED is proposing.

Since the “when is next Wednesday” debate won’t ever be settled, arguing from now until next Wednesday is a euphemism for an argument that will go on forever
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Online YitzyS

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2015
  • Posts: 5687
  • Total likes: 13850
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood, NJ
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #309 on: May 31, 2022, 10:52:02 PM »
In case this will help, I'm posting the letter that I submitted. I cut out identifying details in the first paragraph, which included a description of my expertise and what I do for a living.



To whom it may concern,

My name is... and I am a graduate of... I am currently a... (description of expertise and job). I have received a wholesome education at my yeshiva, and have excelled on all my Regent’s examinations – garnering grades well above the statewide average. Additionally, as a product of a yeshiva education, I am privy to be able to raise a beautiful family in a moral and ethical oasis, far removed from the crime and corruption that tragically plagues many of today’s youth.

I therefore strongly urge you, don’t make any changes to the regulations that pertain to yeshivas and other private schools. While fringe groups may seek to besmirch the yeshiva system, facts will show that there exists not a greater education system in our country. Perhaps, if anything, a lens should be put on the yeshiva system and the NYSED should scrutinize it in order to learn what makes it work so well, so that its successes can perhaps be duplicated in the public school system, which lags behind yeshivas in almost every meaningful category.

I conclude with the words of Mark Twain, written in a poignant piece titled “Concerning the Jews” (Harper’s Magazine, September 1899):

“The Jew is not a disturber of the peace of any country. Even his enemies will concede that. He is not a loafer, he is not a sot, he is not noisy, he is not a brawler nor a rioter, he is not quarrelsome. In the statistics of crime his presence is conspicuously rare — in all countries. With murder and other crimes of violence he has but little to do: he is a stranger to the hangman. In the police court’s daily long roll of “assaults” and “drunk and disorderlies” his name seldom appears.

“That the Jewish home is a home in the truest sense is a fact which no one will dispute. The family is knitted together by the strongest affections; its members show each other every due respect; and reverence for the elders is an inviolate law of the house. The Jew is not a burden on the charities of the state nor of the city; these could cease from their functions without affecting him.

“When he is well enough, he works; when he is incapacitated, his own people take care of him. And not in a poor and stingy way, but with a fine and large benevolence. His race is entitled to be called the most benevolent of all the races of men. A Jewish beggar is not impossible, perhaps; such a thing may exist, but there are few men that can say they have seen that spectacle. The Jew has been staged in many uncomplimentary forms, but, so far as I know, no dramatist has done him the injustice to stage him as a beggar. Whenever a Jew has real need to beg, his people save him from the necessity of doing it. The charitable institutions of the Jews are supported by Jewish money, and amply. The Jews make no noise about it; it is done quietly; they do not nag and pester and harass us for contributions; they give us peace, and set us an example — an example which we have not found ourselves able to follow; for by nature we are not free givers, and have to be patiently and persistently hunted down in the interest of the unfortunate.

“These facts are all on the credit side of the proposition that the Jew is a good and orderly citizen. Summed up, they certify that he is quiet, peaceable, industrious, unaddicted to high crimes and brutal dispositions; that his family life is commendable; that he is not a burden upon public charities; that he is not a beggar; that in benevolence he is above the reach of competition. These are the very quintessentials of good citizenship.”

These portrayals, penned by the great American writer 120 years ago, ring true today. And today, just as it was 120 years ago, the yeshiva system is the moral backbone of the Jewish nation. The values Twain bespoke were only achieved through a thriving, unimpeded yeshiva system. Please, don’t impose the suggested regulation changes on private schools – it is morally wrong and sensibly inconceivable.

Sincerely,
*my name and address*

Offline Euclid

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 5039
  • Total likes: 6190
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #310 on: May 31, 2022, 10:56:45 PM »

Offline Choshive Yid

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Dec 2020
  • Posts: 147
  • Total likes: 62
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Miami Florida
  • Programs: JetBlue BLUE BASIC (BASIC ECONOMY), Walmart+ free trial, Amazon prime free trial, Spirit Airlines banned passengers list, Lufthansa Jewish Baseball cap wearer Status,
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #311 on: May 31, 2022, 10:58:00 PM »
So why would you oppose requiring yeshivas to test their students to show that they're able to write fluent English?
That's the point. They are part of huge companies despite their writing abilities. And, if they had to spend extra time worrying about writing perfectly during their childhood, it could've taken away from things that shaped their amazing future.
Go convince that to the millionaires in Lakewood.
It's coming from both sides of the argument, but one-person examples aren't great (including @biobook examples of with articles of people who were dissatisfied). I agree with @biobook that what's important is a real study comparing the education of yeshiva's to public schools
« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 11:04:11 PM by Choshive Yid »
koshermyphone.com

Offline etech0

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 12921
  • Total likes: 3383
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: not lakewood
  • Programs: DDF
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #312 on: May 31, 2022, 10:59:36 PM »
well all you need to know are 1s and 0s
Workflowy. You won't know what you're missing until you try it.

Offline Choshive Yid

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Dec 2020
  • Posts: 147
  • Total likes: 62
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Miami Florida
  • Programs: JetBlue BLUE BASIC (BASIC ECONOMY), Walmart+ free trial, Amazon prime free trial, Spirit Airlines banned passengers list, Lufthansa Jewish Baseball cap wearer Status,
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #313 on: May 31, 2022, 11:01:07 PM »
It's not possessive ;)
well all you need to know are 1s and 0s
Thank you very much @elucid for the much-needed smile in this tense argument.
koshermyphone.com

Offline gozalim

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 4308
  • Total likes: 821
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68930
  • Total likes: 17317
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #315 on: May 31, 2022, 11:11:46 PM »
My English is far from perfect but it isn’t all that bad for a formal education that didn’t teach me the English alphabet or how to count my fingers, and I have a career in software development.
well all you need to know are 1s and 0s
And thank goodness for that. If they needed 2s it would be game over.
♫Ohelei torah chai, two plus two is five, Ohelei torah Ohelei torah Ohelei torah chai♫
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68930
  • Total likes: 17317
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #316 on: May 31, 2022, 11:16:37 PM »
for fun go through the names
Impossible!  ;D
« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 11:34:02 PM by Dan »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17712
  • Total likes: 7967
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #317 on: May 31, 2022, 11:29:42 PM »
And thank goodness for that. If they needed 2s it would be game over.

The correct words (aka Lyrics in English) are:

Oholei Torah Chai, two plus two is five, A B three, one two C, you eat the food you die..
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68930
  • Total likes: 17317
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #318 on: May 31, 2022, 11:32:48 PM »
The correct words (aka Lyrics in English) are:

Oholei Torah Chai, two plus two is five, A B three, one two C, you eat the food you die..
Fake news, this is a modern-day bastardization of the original, made by shameless OTniks with English tutors.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 31016
  • Total likes: 7975
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #319 on: May 31, 2022, 11:32:58 PM »
well all you need to know are 1s and 0s

Ironically thats the only part of IT (in the classic sense) that almost no-one knows :P
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)