AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY

[AsherO]

That's the question: How could you tell if it is an issue?  Yaffed says their members are former graduates, but also parents of current yeshiva students who want their children to learn English, math, and other secular studies.  How could you know how pervasive this is?

I know they’re a group of rabblerousers advocating for reform, and are disgruntled with the community at large, that’s enough for me.

[aygart]

  Yaffed claims that its members include parents who send their children to a particular yeshiva because they appreciate the haskhafa, but at the same time are unhappy with the lack of secular studies but are reluctant to speak out.  How common is that?

"we like the hashkafa just not this part of it so we want to force the whole school to change this part of the hashkafa for us"

[aygart]

Divorce agreement apparently allows father to choose school.  Mother (and, she claims, her son) do not seem opposed to this school, but want secular studies in addition to LK.

This seems like a family court issue

[biobook]

I know they’re a group of rabblerousers advocating for reform, and are disgruntled with the community at large, that’s enough for me.

There have been other issues in the community that were brushed off as being complaints of a few malcontents. 

Disrespect for the particular individuals in the news today shouldn't be the reason for not examining the question in general.

[gozalim]

There have been other issues in the community that were brushed off as being complaints of a few malcontents. 

Disrespect for the particular individuals in the news today shouldn't be the reason for not examining the question in general.

but their credibility here is below zero.

And ambiguity in the regulations would be a help if that leeway was in the hands of the community. Currently that leeway is being put in the hands of the local school board, the only entity whose animus to yeshivos (and private schools) can rival YAFFED. In their hands the ambiguity is the problem

[biobook]

"we like the hashkafa just not this part of it so we want to force the whole school to change this part of the hashkafa for us"

What about when the hanhala decides to reform the yeshiva, getting rid of secular studies?  This isn't what the parents signed up for. 
https://www.timesofisrael.com/complaint-filed-against-brooklyn-yeshiva-for-dropping-all-8th-grade-secular-studies/

[aygart]

What about when the hanhala decides to reform the yeshiva, getting rid of secular studies?  This isn't what the parents signed up for. 
https://www.timesofisrael.com/complaint-filed-against-brooklyn-yeshiva-for-dropping-all-8th-grade-secular-studies/

THat is a question of the school's hashkafah changing. I have switched a child's school over that. Either way, that has no bearing on a case where that did not happen.

[Sammy82]

What about when the hanhala decides to reform the yeshiva, getting rid of secular studies?  This isn't what the parents signed up for. 
https://www.timesofisrael.com/complaint-filed-against-brooklyn-yeshiva-for-dropping-all-8th-grade-secular-studies/

Give us a break. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of yeshivas and bais Yaakovs (not to mention other private schools) in NYS. So you found 1 that is an issue. And maybe a few more. So let's change the entire system. Right. Makes sense.
I'm sure I could find many more horribly failing public schools. But let's give those exact boards and government control over our schools while their own schools are failing.
I usually love your point of views, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. But here you seem way off.

[avromie7]

What about when the hanhala decides to reform the yeshiva, getting rid of secular studies?  This isn't what the parents signed up for. 
https://www.timesofisrael.com/complaint-filed-against-brooklyn-yeshiva-for-dropping-all-8th-grade-secular-studies/

You changed your argument to protecting parents who don't want government "protection". As Ronald Reagan said "The scariest words in the english language are "I'm from the government and I'm here to help".

If parents are unhappy with what the school is teaching, they can take their children to another school. This is not public school, the parents have options.

[Euclid]

This is not public school, the parents have options.

You know this isn't true

[aygart]

You know this isn't true

It mostly is for anyone who really wants. I've been through it.

[biobook]

but their credibility here is below zero.

They - meaning Yaffed?  They're not relevant.  Yaffed is a whistleblower, who publicized what they see as a problem.  Forget about them. The question I'm asking is how would you determine whether or not the issue they raised is considered a problem within the community.

Here's one alleged response to the recently reported "win" in the courts, from the mother's twitter:
"Thank you for everything you're doing on the education front in the chasidish community.  We on the inside can't do much unless we want to put our kids in jeopardy..."

The question I'm asking is about methods:  What method could you use to determine whether most parents are okay with the no-secular education, or if some/many/most are not okay with it but are afraid to voice their opinion?

And ambiguity in the regulations would be a help if that leeway was in the hands of the community. Currently that leeway is being put in the hands of the local school board, the only entity whose animus to yeshivos (and private schools) can rival YAFFED. In their hands the ambiguity is the problem

I think you're mistaken. What are you referring to?  As I read the regulations, there is considerable leeway in the hands of the schools.

[avromie7]

I think you're mistaken. What are you referring to?  As I read the regulations, there is considerable leeway in the hands of the schools.

As you're well aware, government agencies have tremendous leeway when it comes to rule making. They will use the most far-fetched interpretation if it suits their needs.

[avromie7]

They - meaning Yaffed?  They're not relevant.  Yaffed is a whistleblower, who publicized what they see as a problem.  Forget about them. The question I'm asking is how would you determine whether or not the issue they raised is considered a problem within the community.

Here's one alleged response to the recently reported "win" in the courts, from the mother's twitter:
"Thank you for everything you're doing on the education front in the chasidish community.  We on the inside can't do much unless we want to put our kids in jeopardy..."

The question I'm asking is about methods:  What method could you use to determine whether most parents are okay with the no-secular education, or if some/many/most are not okay with it but are afraid to voice their opinion?

Yes YAFFED. Their opinions aren't worth the paper they're written on, and we shouldn't give them any clout. If they had their way, every jewish child would be in public school.

Their alleged quote from .01% of the population shouldn't be the basis for rules for the rest of us. As can be seen here, the only ones complaining are the ones who are on the outside like moster and those who lost in divorce court. Everyone else can decide where to send their children. If someone is unhappy with their community, the solution should not be to change the community. Those who are unhappy can go elsewhere.

[Euclid]

It mostly is for anyone who really wants. I've been through it.

Not for the yeshivas/communities this is targeting

[avromie7]

Not for the yeshivas/communities this is targeting

It's targeting all yeshivas.

[avromie7]

Not for the yeshivas/communities this is targeting

Disgruntled members of a community shouldn't be deciding policy for the entire community.

[biobook]

Give us a break. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of yeshivas and bais Yaakovs (not to mention other private schools) in NYS. So you found 1 that is an issue. And maybe a few more. So let's change the entire system.

What I'm asking is this: How would you know if the parents in those schools think it's an issue?  If they're afraid that their child will suffer if they even mention their dissatisfaction?

I'm sure I could find many more horribly failing public schools. But let's give those exact boards and government control over our schools while their own schools are failing.

You think that "failing public schools" are the result of some deficiency with the board of education?

[Euclid]

It's targeting all yeshivas.

Okay but your point isn't applicable to those most affected.

[Euclid]

Disgruntled members of a community shouldn't be deciding policy for the entire community.

Don't disagree, but you can't say the average Chaim Yankel has options.