Author Topic: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY  (Read 74303 times)

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #400 on: June 10, 2022, 05:18:37 PM »

Their alleged quote from .01% of the population shouldn't be the basis for rules for the rest of us.
THEY are saying that it's .01% of the population?  Or that's your assessment?  What is that based on?

Disgruntled members of a community shouldn't be deciding policy for the entire community.
Yaffed does not decide policy, any more than Greenpeace or Tucker Carlson does.  They may agitate for change, but they're not the policymakers.

Offline avromie7

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #401 on: June 10, 2022, 05:31:30 PM »
Don't disagree, but you can't say the average Chaim Yankel has options.
I don't know how it is in BP and Willy, but in Lakewood you have about as many options as you did before your kids went to school. I suspect the same applies in BP and Willy unless you belong to a chassidus like Gur.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline avromie7

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #402 on: June 10, 2022, 05:32:59 PM »
THEY are saying that it's .01% of the population?  Or that's your assessment?  What is that based on?
Yaffed does not decide policy, any more than Greenpeace or Tucker Carlson does.  They may agitate for change, but they're not the policymakers.
My assessment is more reliable than theirs.

Why should we allow a situation that makes it easier for those who hate us to have a say in our childrens education? That's just asinine.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #403 on: June 10, 2022, 05:34:16 PM »
My assessment is more reliable than theirs.

Why should we allow a situation that makes it easier for those who hate us to have a say in our childrens education? That's just asinine.
What is your assessment based on?

Offline Euclid

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #404 on: June 10, 2022, 05:35:52 PM »
but in Lakewood you have about as many options as you did before your kids went to school
(Lol completely different conversation- but most people in Lkwd do not have multiple options)

Offline aygart

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #405 on: June 10, 2022, 05:57:38 PM »


  but in Lakewood you have about as many options as you did before your kids went to school.



(Lol completely different conversation- but most people in Lkwd do not have multiple options)

You can easily have more options  later on than for primary
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #406 on: June 10, 2022, 06:02:21 PM »

And ambiguity in the regulations would be a help if that leeway was in the hands of the community.
Here's an example from the proposed regulations, which suggests that the yeshivas would have more leeway than public schools:

"Competent teacher means instructional staff employed by the school who
demonstrate the appropriate knowledge, skill, and dispositions to provide substantially
equivalent instruction. A competent teacher need not be certified."

This is different from public schools, where teachers need certification.

Offline Ver hut gazugt

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #407 on: June 10, 2022, 06:05:01 PM »
They - meaning Yaffed?  They're not relevant.  Yaffed is a whistleblower, who publicized what they see as a problem.  Forget about them. The question I'm asking is how would you determine whether or not the issue they raised is considered a problem within the community.

Here's one alleged response to the recently reported "win" in the courts, from the mother's twitter:
"Thank you for everything you're doing on the education front in the chasidish community.  We on the inside can't do much unless we want to put our kids in jeopardy..."

The question I'm asking is about methods:  What method could you use to determine whether most parents are okay with the no-secular education, or if some/many/most are not okay with it but are afraid to voice their opinion?
I think you're mistaken. What are you referring to?  As I read the regulations, there is considerable leeway in the hands of the schools.
I cannot speak for other communities. But in CH anybody who wants can speaks up.

Offline Ver hut gazugt

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #408 on: June 10, 2022, 06:08:33 PM »
Here's an example from the proposed regulations, which suggests that the yeshivas would have more leeway than public schools:

"Competent teacher means instructional staff employed by the school who
demonstrate the appropriate knowledge, skill, and dispositions to provide substantially
equivalent instruction. A competent teacher need not be certified."

This is different from public schools, where teachers need certification.
yes, but that means competent in secular subjects. Which is antithetical to the whole idea of yeshiva.

Offline avromie7

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #409 on: June 10, 2022, 06:13:38 PM »
Here's an example from the proposed regulations, which suggests that the yeshivas would have more leeway than public schools:

"Competent teacher means instructional staff employed by the school who
demonstrate the appropriate knowledge, skill, and dispositions to provide substantially
equivalent instruction. A competent teacher need not be certified."

This is different from public schools, where teachers need certification.
Who decides what competent means?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #410 on: June 10, 2022, 06:14:19 PM »
yes, but that means competent in secular subjects. Which is antithetical to the whole idea of yeshiva.
Yes, of course, in secular subjects.  The government is not involved in teaching religious subjects.  The large number of yeshivas that have taught secular subjects for decades indicate that they are not incompatible.

Offline aygart

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #411 on: June 10, 2022, 06:15:02 PM »
yes, but that means competent in secular subjects. Which is antithetical to the whole idea of yeshiva.
Maybe I am mistaken, but wasn't the Rebbe proficient in secular subjects?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #412 on: June 10, 2022, 06:19:42 PM »
Who decides what competent means?
The school has to show that the teachers are competent, meaning they have "appropriate knowledge, skill, and dispositions".  They couldn't say that the teacher of English writing is competent if that person can only write in Yiddish, but the teacher wouldn't have to have a college degree in English or anything like that.

Offline Ver hut gazugt

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #413 on: June 10, 2022, 06:20:20 PM »
Yes, of course, in secular subjects.  The government is not involved in teaching religious subjects.  The large number of yeshivas that have taught secular subjects for decades indicate that they are not incompatible.
it was not done in yeshivos for over 2000 years. It is relatively new, which was done out of necessity, so that children would not go to public schools. At its core yeshivos are about teaching Torah. AFAIK it is the first  “ public school system “ and was introduced to make sure that children without a father will also be thought Torah.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2022, 06:26:06 PM by Ver hut gazugt »

Offline Ver hut gazugt

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #414 on: June 10, 2022, 06:22:26 PM »
Maybe I am mistaken, but wasn't the Rebbe proficient in secular subjects?
he did not learn it in yeshiva and this is a whole separate discussion.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2022, 06:25:46 PM by Ver hut gazugt »

Offline avromie7

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #415 on: June 10, 2022, 06:27:02 PM »
The school has to show that the teachers are competent, meaning they have "appropriate knowledge, skill, and dispositions".  They couldn't say that the teacher of English writing is competent if that person can only write in Yiddish, but the teacher wouldn't have to have a college degree in English or anything like that.
Great, so all we need is Moster to decide a teacher is not competent, and sue the school. Why would we as a community want to open ourselves up to these frivolous lawsuits?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #416 on: June 10, 2022, 06:28:45 PM »
it was not done in yeshivos for over 2000 years. It is relatively new, which was done out of necessity, so that children would not go to public schools. At its core yeshivos are about teaching Torah. AFAIK it is the first  “ public school system “ and was introduced to make sure that children without a father will also be thought Torah.
I'm not understanding this.  What/When?

Offline drosenberg88429

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #417 on: June 10, 2022, 06:31:07 PM »
What I'm asking is this: How would you know if the parents in those schools think it's an issue?  If they're afraid that their child will suffer if they even mention their dissatisfaction?

They can pack out if they're dissatisfied, or provide it to their children on their own time. The school (and possibly community membership) offers a package deal. If you're not happy with the package, there's nobody forcing you to come here.

If I go to a hotel that doesn't offer breakfast as part of their booking package, I can choose to stay there or go somewhere else. It's unreasonable of me to get the authorities involved to force the hotel to start providing breakfast, when there are her patrons that are satisfied with the no breakfast option and nobody forcing me to stay in this hotel. And it would certainly be ludicrous if the government would not only force the hotel to provide breakfast, but they would forcibly compel the other guests to consume it.

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #418 on: June 10, 2022, 06:32:49 PM »
Great, so all we need is Moster to decide a teacher is not competent, and sue the school. Why would we as a community want to open ourselves up to these frivolous lawsuits?
Moster has no standing to sue the school.  Lawsuits are not relevant here.
The proposed guidelines require the schools to show the state that they have competent teachers.   This is part of the review that's done every 5 years.

Offline AsherO

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #419 on: June 10, 2022, 06:52:13 PM »
There have been other issues in the community that were brushed off as being complaints of a few malcontents. 

Disrespect for the particular individuals in the news today shouldn't be the reason for not examining the question in general.

I’m happy to do that. What I’m not happy is for the government to be the arbiters.
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