Author Topic: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY  (Read 74306 times)

Offline Moshe123

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #420 on: June 10, 2022, 06:58:49 PM »
I can't stop laughing. Biobook, the way you speak about yaffed means that either you're playing ignorant, or really clueless.

Offline avromie7

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #421 on: June 10, 2022, 07:04:53 PM »
Moster has no standing to sue the school.  Lawsuits are not relevant here.
The proposed guidelines require the schools to show the state that they have competent teachers.   This is part of the review that's done every 5 years.
Wasn't part if the proposal to give anyone standing?

Who decides on the standard they need to show the state? What happens when the state decides anyone who doesn't believe in transgenderism is incompetent?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #422 on: June 10, 2022, 07:07:08 PM »
I’m happy to do that. What I’m not happy is for the government to be the arbiters.
The current proposed guidelines were developed after months of meetings with heads of yeshivas and private schools, parents, alumni.  They're not something the govt pulled out of their hats, and they allow considerable flexibility for decisions by the yeshiva.

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #423 on: June 10, 2022, 07:08:08 PM »
I can't stop laughing. Biobook, the way you speak about yaffed means that either you're playing ignorant, or really clueless.
So clue me in.  I only know what I've read on their website, and in the articles that I've found by and about them.  What do you think I'm missing?

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #424 on: June 10, 2022, 07:12:46 PM »
Wasn't part if the proposal to give anyone standing?
To sue the school?  No.

Quote
Who decides on the standard they need to show the state? What happens when the state decides anyone who doesn't believe in transgenderism is incompetent?
I think we'd all agree that if the yeshiva wanted to teach a course in transgenderism, then the teacher they hire would have to believe in transgenderism.

But the state is not requiring courses in transgenderism.  They're requiring schools to teach English, math, science and social studies.  Where did you get the idea that transgenderism would be a required part of those courses?

Offline avromie7

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #425 on: June 10, 2022, 07:15:34 PM »
To sue the school?  No.
I think we'd all agree that if the yeshiva wanted to teach a course in transgenderism, then the teacher they hire would have to believe in transgenderism.

But the state is not requiring courses in transgenderism.  They're requiring schools to teach English, math, science and social studies.  Where did you get the idea that transgenderism would be a required part of those courses?
When the state decides transgenderism is part of social studies.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #426 on: June 10, 2022, 07:41:26 PM »
When the state decides transgenderism is part of social studies.
The regulations don't go into that sort of detail.  There's plenty of room for schools to select specific topics.  Here's the overview from the requirements for public schools:

What are the Learning Standards for Social Studies?

New York State has five specific content area standards for social studies, which are indicators of what students should learn and be able to do upon completion of the K-12 Social Studies program:

Standard 1:  History of the United States and New York
Students will use a variety of intellectual skills to demonstrate their understanding of major ideas, eras, themes, developments, and turning points in the history of the United States and New York.

Standard 2:  World History
Students will use a variety of intellectual skills to demonstrate their understanding of major ideas, eras, themes, developments, and turning points in world history and examine the broad sweep of history from a variety of perspectives.

Standard 3:  Geography
Students will use a variety of intellectual skills to demonstrate their understanding of the geography of the interdependent world in which we live—local, national, and global—including the distribution of people, places, and environments over Earth’s surface.

Standard 4:  Economics
Students will use a variety of intellectual skills to demonstrate their understanding of how the United States and other societies develop economic systems and associated institutions to allocate scarce resources, how major decision-making units function in the United States and other national economies, and how an economy solves the scarcity problem through market and nonmarket mechanisms.

Standard 5:  Civics, Citizenship, and Government
Students will use a variety of intellectual skills to demonstrate their understanding of the necessity for establishing governments; the governmental systems of the United States and other nations; the United States Constitution; the basic civic values of American constitutional democracy; and the roles, rights, and responsibilities of citizenship, including avenues of participation.

http://www.nysed.gov/curriculum-instruction/frequently-asked-questions

Offline aygart

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #427 on: June 11, 2022, 11:44:59 PM »
So clue me in.  I only know what I've read on their website, and in the articles that I've found by and about them.  What do you think I'm missing?
I think you should take a step back. Here w have a group that everyone here is considering to be a bunch of rabble rousers and you are basing on their own propaganda?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #428 on: June 11, 2022, 11:53:08 PM »
There is much to respond to, and hopefully I'll take some time to do so in the next days or so, but Yaffed has made many a statement that coming from a non Jewish group would be called wildly antisemitic.

During covid, they said Orthodox Jews weren't following covid rules because they had no science education and couldn't fathom the existence of a microscopic virus invisible to the naked eye.

The same community, mind you, that was mocked when they expressed concern for the copepods in tap water, also invisible to the naked eye.

I'm unable to go dig up the statements now, but this one is memorable, not because it's the worst, but to me was most humorous.

Offline neveryou

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #429 on: June 12, 2022, 12:39:51 AM »
So clue me in.  I only know what I've read on their website, and in the articles that I've found by and about them.  What do you think I'm missing?



Offline moko

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #430 on: June 12, 2022, 12:46:36 AM »
So clue me in.  I only know what I've read on their website, and in the articles that I've found by and about them.  What do you think I'm missing?
what really clues me in that an organization is  legit, when there's not one person on the board of directors or Rabbinical board who is from the community they claim to represent.
I know a Halal organization is legit when I see a bunch of Rabbis and pastors on the Board of Directors.
Fills me with loads of confidence that I'm getting a complete picture.
It's actually my many years of critical thinking and 4 years of regents secular studies that enables me to analyze the situation correctly.
It's actually a very western (American) mentality to lecture other cultures on what's good for them.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 12:50:02 AM by moko »

Offline VacationLover

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #431 on: June 12, 2022, 01:02:41 AM »
So clue me in.  I only know what I've read on their website, and in the articles that I've found by and about them.  What do you think I'm missing?
However, if the government is trying to change with the backing of community drop outs who are no longer orthodox, the community will oppose any change

Offline YitzyS

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #432 on: June 12, 2022, 01:06:03 AM »
Yaffed is comprised of self-hating Jews who have proven themselves to lack any credibility in any field. I personally would brand them as a hate group, just like so many others out there.

Offline AsherO

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #433 on: June 12, 2022, 08:15:01 AM »
The current proposed guidelines were developed after months of meetings with heads of yeshivas and private schools, parents, alumni.  They're not something the govt pulled out of their hats, and they allow considerable flexibility for decisions by the yeshiva.

Which yeshivas? And we’re they developing guidelines or forced into negotiations?
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline yesitsme

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Offline yesitsme

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Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #436 on: June 12, 2022, 11:41:09 AM »
I’m happy to do that. What I’m not happy is for the government to be the arbiters.
We're a country of laws, and NY State has an Education Law.  As with any law, if you're not happy with it, you can either lobby to change it or break it and deal with the consequences.

The current proposed guidelines were developed after months of meetings with heads of yeshivas and private schools, parents, alumni.  They're not something the govt pulled out of their hats, and they allow considerable flexibility for decisions by the yeshiva.

Which yeshivas? And we’re they developing guidelines or forced into negotiations?

There seems to be a misconception that Yaffed dictated these rules, but that's not how it works.  Creating the guidelines is NYSED's responsibility.  The current law states that students have to get an education that's "substantially equivalent" to that of the public schools, but it doesn't specify exactly what that entails. 

The same problem occurred in the 1970s and 80s, when more and more parents wanted to homeschool and some parents were even arrested for failure to provide substantially equivalent education to their children at home.  Proponents of homeschooling lobbied for clarification of the law and NYSED put together regulations, asked for community response, and after a lot of back and forth they integrated those responses into the regulations which were eventually codified as part of the law. 

They're working on a similar process now, this time to codify how "substantially equivalent" applies to private schools.  They began with the curricular guidelines for public schools and modified those to create proposed guidelines that were publicized in 2019 with a request for public comments. 

Staff read and summarized the 140,000 public comments, many of which would have been a single letter signed by 10s of thousands of parents, but also including detailed letters from Agudah, PEARLS, Yaffed, and, of course, other private and parochial schools and organizations.

They read those summaries and conducted online meetings with about 500 participants.  These included leaders of independent (eg Preparatory, Montessori) and religious schools (Christian, Islamic, Jewish - they don't specify names) and advocates (eg, PEARLS, Yaffed) as well as groups of private school students, parents, and alumni. "In addition, Department staff conducted in-person conversations with religious communities that do not use the internet."  Again, that sounds like yeshivas, but they don't specify names.

These people were asked two main questions:

Question 1: What components of your school’s mission and/or program are important to consider as we create a framework for the substantial equivalence determination process? How would you recommend to demonstrate and/or recognize substantial equivalence?

Question 2: How do you suggest the Department move forward to develop a framework for the substantial equivalence determination process? Please tell us how we can make that process as inclusive as possible.

They took the results of those discussions and rewrote the proposed regulations that we were asked to comment on recently. 

Offline moko

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #437 on: June 12, 2022, 11:50:23 AM »
We're a country of laws, and NY State has an Education Law.  As with any law, if you're not happy with it, you can either lobby to change it or break it and deal with the consequences.

There seems to be a misconception that Yaffed dictated these rules, but that's not how it works.  Creating the guidelines is NYSED's responsibility.  The current law states that students have to get an education that's "substantially equivalent" to that of the public schools, but it doesn't specify exactly what that entails. 


That's exactly what aguda is doing. Same as yaffed.
Key difference is they're lobbying for another community, who has no interest in their input, whereas aguda is lobbying for their community.

Not sure if you understand what lobbying is but here is some of the basic principles.

Its a political concept known as lobbying.
That's spelled L-O-B-B-Y-I-N-G
lob·by
/ˈläbē/
Learn to pronounce
verb
gerund or present participle: lobbying
seek to influence (a politician or public official) on an issue.
What Are Examples of Lobbying?
 Lobbying examples include meetings and discussions with government representatives, influencing legislation by negotiating the details
« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 11:53:55 AM by moko »

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #438 on: June 12, 2022, 11:55:26 AM »

 Lobbying examples include meetings and discussions with government representatives, influencing legislation by negotiating the details
Exactly.  Moster was one of 140,000 people to lobby against the 2019 proposal, and one of 500 people to give comments in the online meetings. 

He thrusts himself into the news, so you hear about him, but I think you're exaggerating his influence on the development of the regulations.

Offline shapsam

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #439 on: June 12, 2022, 12:08:48 PM »
Exactly.  Moster was one of 140,000 people to lobby against the 2019 proposal, and one of 500 people to give comments in the online meetings. 

He thrusts himself into the news, so you hear about him, but I think you're exaggerating his influence on the development of the regulations.
Why do you think so? It actually seems that he is THE person/organization pushing these regulations, he's in Albany on a weekly basis trying to influence them.