Author Topic: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY  (Read 74311 times)

Offline shapsam

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Offline moko

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #441 on: June 12, 2022, 12:15:16 PM »
Exactly.  Moster was one of 140,000 people to lobby against the 2019 proposal, and one of 500 people to give comments in the online meetings. 

He thrusts himself into the news, so you hear about him, but I think you're exaggerating his influence on the development of the regulations.
you make me laugh. I highly doubt you're this ignorant.
That's the equivalent of saying Rabbi Zweibel is only one of 250000 people to sign against the current proposal.
This in no way reflects my personal views on way or the other on this matter.
But to be an ostrich and pretend that Moster/Yaffed had no bearing and sticking this issue in the limelight and garnering support for their position is ludicrous.

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #442 on: June 12, 2022, 12:22:46 PM »
Why do you think so? It actually seems that he is THE person/organization pushing these regulations, he's in Albany on a weekly basis trying to influence them.
That's what I'm saying, it only seems that he is a major influence on these regulations because he's an activist.  He goes around talking, interviewing, tweeting, making his opinions known, loudly and repeatedly.   

But his influence on the actual regulations looks miniscule to me.  The regulations are similar in many ways to those written for the public schools, with modifications as appropriate.

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #443 on: June 12, 2022, 12:28:07 PM »

But to be an ostrich and pretend that Moster/Yaffed had no bearing and sticking this issue in the limelight and garnering support for their position is ludicrous.
I agree that Moster/Yaffed was the major reason that this issue entered the limelight.  He was responsible for NYSED starting to write regulations in 2018.

What I'm saying is that he had very little role in deciding what the regulations actually say.

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #444 on: June 12, 2022, 08:43:49 PM »

Here is another piece related not to these specific regulations, but the people driving these changes:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/soviet-jewish-schools-yeshiva-yevsektzia-schneersohn-yaffed-antisemitism-first-amendment-11630613080
Thanks for this fascinating article.  My direct ancestors all left Russia before WWI, so most of the history I’ve read has been limited to the period leading up to that.  I had known that religion was repressed in the 20th century, but wasn't familiar with the details here (and in the meandering rabbit hole this sent me down.)

Still, there’s a huge difference between the two Ys.  The Yevsektzia was part of a plot to destroy not only religious education, but also to eliminate shuls, mikvas, and the very lives of teachers, rabbis, shochtim.  It was part of a movement against not only Jews, but also Russian Orthodox and Catholics.  Yaffed on the other hand has not called for destruction of a religion, and not even destruction of a yeshiva, but just a modification of what is taught there.  Seems like quite a stretch to compare the two.

To Dovid Margolin, the conflict today echoes the pain of Jews barred from limudei kodesh, but for most American Jews, the persecution it was secular learning that we so often had to fight for. 

In the 1600s, yeshiva graduates from Poland had to travel to Padua, Italy to find a university that would allow them to study medicine.  In the late 1800s, most Jews in the Pale attended cheder, but were barred from high school and universities.

To paraphrase DM, “It was this kind of persecution that led Jews to seek a life of freedom in the U.S. Their first priority was to provide their children with” the secular education that they had been denied, even when they supplemented it with cheder, Talmud torah, and private lessons in Limudei Kodesh in the home. 

Yet even in America there were struggles in the 20s and 30s - bullying from fellow students and Jew quotas in colleges and medical schools, leading people to create Jewish days schools in the 40s and 50s so their children could learn both religious and secular studies in a Jewish environment.
   
The echo I hear is “You can’t study this!” which had been directed towards us for generations by anti-semitic governments now being directed towards children by their own parents.

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #445 on: June 12, 2022, 09:05:32 PM »

The activists who got this going have proposed numerous regulations in the past, and they aren't stopping here. ..... In their zeal to give every Chossid a secular education, they've proposed minimum times to devote to secular subjects that even modern Orthodox day schools would not meet. Teachers have to be certified in ways that would eliminate a massive amount of teachers,
....
And lest you think it's not a problem because they wouldn't possibly arrest someone for this, that's not a risk anyone should be comfortable with, and it's enough if a problem that such a thing is even possible.
The activists activated (?), but the regulations were put together by NYSED, and seem to be a modified version of the law as it applies to public schools.

The existing Education Law now states that children have to get an education that's substantially equivalent to that in public schools.  If they don't, the parents can be arrested and fined or jailed.  Obviously NYSED is not in the business of jailing, and wants to get students into schools, so I don't know how often if ever this penalty is applied. 

AIUI, if these proposed regulations are not approved, the NYS Chancellor of Education could still arrest a parent on the grounds that the child is not attending a school that provides a substantially equivalent education, based on the current law.  A judge would then have to decide what substantially equivalent means, or, I suppose, the judge could say "I can't figure this out" and send it to the legislature to get the law clarified. 

IANAL, but that's what it sounds like to me.

Offline gozalim

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #446 on: June 12, 2022, 09:30:58 PM »
Thanks for this fascinating article.  My direct ancestors all left Russia before WWI, so most of the history I’ve read has been limited to the period leading up to that.  I had known that religion was repressed in the 20th century, but wasn't familiar with the details here (and in the meandering rabbit hole this sent me down.)

Still, there’s a huge difference between the two Ys.  The Yevsektzia was part of a plot to destroy not only religious education, but also to eliminate shuls, mikvas, and the very lives of teachers, rabbis, shochtim.  It was part of a movement against not only Jews, but also Russian Orthodox and Catholics.  Yaffed on the other hand has not called for destruction of a religion, and not even destruction of a yeshiva, but just a modification of what is taught there.  Seems like quite a stretch to compare the two.

To Dovid Margolin, the conflict today echoes the pain of Jews barred from limudei kodesh, but for most American Jews, the persecution it was secular learning that we so often had to fight for. 

In the 1600s, yeshiva graduates from Poland had to travel to Padua, Italy to find a university that would allow them to study medicine.  In the late 1800s, most Jews in the Pale attended cheder, but were barred from high school and universities.

To paraphrase DM, “It was this kind of persecution that led Jews to seek a life of freedom in the U.S. Their first priority was to provide their children with” the secular education that they had been denied, even when they supplemented it with cheder, Talmud torah, and private lessons in Limudei Kodesh in the home. 

Yet even in America there were struggles in the 20s and 30s - bullying from fellow students and Jew quotas in colleges and medical schools, leading people to create Jewish days schools in the 40s and 50s so their children could learn both religious and secular studies in a Jewish environment.
   
The echo I hear is “You can’t study this!” which had been directed towards us for generations by anti-semitic governments now being directed towards children by their own parents.

the fact the you and your grandparents had to struggle for a secular education, I'm very happy for you that you now have access to your preferred education.

Go a little further down the rabbit hole. What ended with all out persecution started with the czar, at the behest of maskilim, in the name of saving the poor Jews from themselves, inserting his government, and maskilim inspectors, as the arbiters and regulators of the cheder education.

Enjoy the secular education that your grandparents were prevented by the American anti semites, and allow me the Torah education that the Russian anti semites prevented my grandparents

Offline gozalim

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #447 on: June 12, 2022, 09:33:06 PM »
If this was as innocent as you make it, they'd have the oversight from within the yeshiva system, as they currently do for the higher education qualifications.
This is putting the fox to guard the henhouse, at the foxes demand. We've been down this road before

Offline aygart

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #448 on: June 12, 2022, 09:35:35 PM »


We're a country of laws, and NY State has an Education Law.  As with any law, if you're not happy with it, you can either lobby to change it or break it and deal with the consequences.

 
Wait, isn't that exactly what everyone here is trying to do?

Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #449 on: June 13, 2022, 12:16:11 PM »
Yaffed is a lobbying group, they don't create policy. Everyone knows that. But they are extremely effective. They have the ear of numerous politicians, and many influential folks in the media, the types of media personalities who harangue politicians about their pet issues and influence change. If we dismiss them as being mere lobbyists and not the ones who make change, they will move ahead with their agenda unopposed and be successful. If we give in and compromise today, they aren't stopping, they are going to continue to work to achieve all of their goals. This is not a slippery slope argument in the classic hypothetical sense, we know exactly what the slope is and where it leads to, because they are telling us!

I've made this point numerous times, but I'll say it again a bit differently. I am going to speak about Crown Heights as an example because that is what I know.

There are a number of schools to choose from, each with varying levels of secular education. The biggest boys' school doesn't teach any secular studies at all. That is quite shocking to many people outside of the community. And I get it. If you were to pick a Chassidic group that doesn't teach secular education based on their ideology and interaction with the secular world, I think 99 out of 100 people would not pick Chabad. The Rebbe himself was college-educated and wanted a school with no secular studies at all. (He was also in favor of some level of secular studies in just about every other school, so it is not an across-the-board philosophy by any means. If anything, this school is the exception, not the rule).

Remember I said it is the biggest school? It probably has more students than all the schools that offer secular studies combined. Can parents speak up? They can! And they do! Thank G-d new schools have opened and keep on opening. But that "no secular" school is growing too.

So now you tell me just like I have to follow traffic rules, I have to follow BOE rules, and the proposed rules are reasonable. Well, why should they be enforcing any rules at all? This school has been open since the '50s. It has tens of thousands of graduates. The school's alumni include professionals in just about every field you can imagine, religious leaders, medical, legal, accounting, arts, business, and leidigeir professionals. Many uber-successful, many not. But on the whole, there is no poverty problem among its alumni, there are none of the other social and criminal issues that often come with poverty-stricken communities, on the contrary! The community is thriving. The fact that Crown Heights is surrounded by communities that suffer tremendously from these issues is beside the point, but it does help to contrast the "no-secular" education system vs the public school system.

On what basis is the BOE trying to implement change? You want to compare it to abuse or other issues where children were being harmed and the community schools and infrastructure weren't doing anything/enough to stop it? Show me the "abuse". Show me how yeshivahs are producing incompetent, illiterate graduates who can't get gainful employment. Show me the delinquency.

You can't. No one can. What we can show is that tens of thousands of frum families pay a premium for private education. Their taxes go towards a public school system they get absolutely no use out of. They get relatively minuscule amounts of funding for various programs, but relative to the money being supplied by the community, it is negligible. Not only are yeshivah graduates doing ok, they are doing ok living a far more expensive lifestyle than the average public school family.

Crown Heights is a very open community. If parents are not happy, they speak up, and there is no mafia-like scheme that will get them blacklisted from the "community". If someone were to get "blacklisted" by one rov or institution, 3 others will come out in support of them within 5 minutes. Personally, I discuss issues at our schools with my friends almost every week. (incidentally, the group includes parents extremely passionate about providing a secular education for their kids) The idea that Yaffed is speaking on our behalf, or on behalf of people forced into silence is laughable. You'd be hard-pressed to find a single parent who supports them in any way.

Now, can the same be said for other communities? I don't know. I do know that virtually all schools have more secular studies than Crown Heights' biggest school. I also know that nondenominational schools have opened in Borough Park and grown quite fast (not sure about Williamsburg). Clearly, parents have more of a choice than Yaffed claims. And if there were so many parents clamoring for change, I'm damn sure you could get at least a couple to go on the record. There are people who have gone on the record for so many other topics, from eruvin, to agunos, to opposing Rebbes in communities where that leads you to be ousted without question. Why is secular schooling such a third rail, when it is something so many parents approve of as we can see by how many choose schools with secular education?

TLDR; I oppose any regulations on the yeshiva system whatsoever. Whatever my choice is to educate my kids is just that - my choice. If you feel like I'm abusing my child by denying them that education, you have decades of alumni to look at and prove that point. So long as you the BOE cannot prove that it is harmful, they have no business telling me how to educate my child.

*P.S. My son is currently in preschool, but he is enrolled in a school that *does* have a secular program, and as of now I don't foresee taking him out of the school. If I do, it won't have anything to do with the secular program. I don't even know if his school will be affected by the current proposed regulations. I don't care. I still vehemently oppose ANY regulations.

Offline Euclid

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #450 on: June 13, 2022, 12:52:07 PM »
Well, why should they be enforcing any rules at all? This school has been open since the '50s. It has tens of thousands of graduates. The school's alumni include professionals in just about every field you can imagine, religious leaders, medical, legal, accounting, arts, business, and leidigeir professionals.

(Not disagreeing with your overall points: but this can't be said about the schools Yaffed is really after, where English is not their first language. The people who don't have business acumen don't have the same ability to transition to other professional positions, and they're instead stuck in low paying jobs. I've made the same point earlier when people compared Lakewood.)

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #451 on: June 13, 2022, 12:59:22 PM »
the schools Yaffed is really after, where English is not their first language.

They are not picking and choosing which schools they target, they're targeting all yeshivahs. It will also impact private schools of every other religion as well. At least one of their more vocal supporters is a graduate of the school I'm talking about and he specifically talks about that school, as is one of the op-ed writers upthread. So yes, they are targeting CH as well.

The people who don't have business acumen don't have the same ability to transition to other professional positions, and they're instead stuck in low paying jobs.)

So let them prove it. There are decades and decades of evidence. Show us in black and white that yeshivah graduates are more likely to live in poverty than public school graduates.

Offline sguitarist18

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #452 on: June 13, 2022, 01:30:57 PM »
And to speak to Yehuda57's point, you will always find, in any system, students that the system didn't work for. But when you look at the overall system, you'd be hard-pressed to find any other system where the students are as successful in the long run, and happy with the system.

The sheer number of parents who continue to respond to the various iterations of this bill should tell you everything you need to know.

Offline yelped

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #453 on: June 13, 2022, 01:36:53 PM »
@Yehuda57 Your points are all correct, but I would say like @Euclid, schools where English is not the first language do need to invest some time in teaching that and basic subjects. However, as far as I know, all schools in BP and Williamsburg do teach those, unlike OT in CH. The issue in some cases, is not the actual teaching, but with how well children behave during those hours which has much more to do with the parents' outlook and the government mandating the quantity and quality of secular studies definitely won't help.

Offline AsherO

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #454 on: June 13, 2022, 01:49:39 PM »
Thanks for this fascinating article.  My direct ancestors all left Russia before WWI, so most of the history I’ve read has been limited to the period leading up to that.  I had known that religion was repressed in the 20th century, but wasn't familiar with the details here (and in the meandering rabbit hole this sent me down.)

Still, there’s a huge difference between the two Ys.  The Yevsektzia was part of a plot to destroy not only religious education, but also to eliminate shuls, mikvas, and the very lives of teachers, rabbis, shochtim.  It was part of a movement against not only Jews, but also Russian Orthodox and Catholics.  Yaffed on the other hand has not called for destruction of a religion, and not even destruction of a yeshiva, but just a modification of what is taught there.  Seems like quite a stretch to compare the two.

To Dovid Margolin, the conflict today echoes the pain of Jews barred from limudei kodesh, but for most American Jews, the persecution it was secular learning that we so often had to fight for. 

In the 1600s, yeshiva graduates from Poland had to travel to Padua, Italy to find a university that would allow them to study medicine.  In the late 1800s, most Jews in the Pale attended cheder, but were barred from high school and universities.

To paraphrase DM, “It was this kind of persecution that led Jews to seek a life of freedom in the U.S. Their first priority was to provide their children with” the secular education that they had been denied, even when they supplemented it with cheder, Talmud torah, and private lessons in Limudei Kodesh in the home. 

Yet even in America there were struggles in the 20s and 30s - bullying from fellow students and Jew quotas in colleges and medical schools, leading people to create Jewish days schools in the 40s and 50s so their children could learn both religious and secular studies in a Jewish environment.
   
The echo I hear is “You can’t study this!” which had been directed towards us for generations by anti-semitic governments now being directed towards children by their own parents.


What about efforts during the Haskalah for European governments trying to regulate secular education for Orthodox Jews?
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #455 on: June 13, 2022, 01:50:57 PM »
@Yehuda57 Your points are all correct, but I would say like @Euclid, schools where English is not the first language do need to invest some time in teaching that and basic subjects. However, as far as I know, all schools in BP and Williamsburg do teach those, unlike OT in CH. The issue in some cases, is not the actual teaching, but with how well children behave during those hours which has much more to do with the parents' outlook and the government mandating the quantity and quality of secular studies definitely won't help.

Again, this should be the parent's choice, not the BOE, unless they have evidence that kids are being harmed by yeshiva education.

English being commonplace in the CH school in question is a relatively recent phenomenon. For decades it was exclusively Yiddish.

Offline yelped

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #456 on: June 13, 2022, 02:02:51 PM »
Again, this should be the parent's choice, not the BOE, unless they have evidence that kids are being harmed by yeshiva education.

English being commonplace in the CH school in question is a relatively recent phenomenon. For decades it was exclusively Yiddish.
I don't disagree as mentioned.

Offline moko

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #457 on: June 13, 2022, 02:21:56 PM »
@Yehuda57 Your points are all correct, but I would say like @Euclid, schools where English is not the first language do need to invest some time in teaching that and basic subjects. However, as far as I know, all schools in BP and Williamsburg do teach those, unlike OT in CH. The issue in some cases, is not the actual teaching, but with how well children behave during those hours which has much more to do with the parents' outlook and the government mandating the quantity and quality of secular studies definitely won't help.
why is that for you to decide?
From an outsiders perspective, milah appears barbaric.
"Those Jews who conduct the milah outside of sterile medical facilities ought to be stopped. "

Just because something seems odd or wrong to you , shouldn't give you the authority to decide what's good for others
There's also these crazy Jews who wear wool jackets and hats in the sweltering heat and encourage thier son's to do so as well. There's an even crazier group who teaches thier children to wrap these weird leather straps and boxes, all in the sweltering heat.
It's just barbaric.

And that is how some of the world sees us.
Just as you see these primitive schools who dont teach secular subjects as you wish they would.

Offline yelped

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #458 on: June 13, 2022, 02:23:00 PM »
I don't understand what you are saying or why you are replying to me.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #459 on: June 13, 2022, 02:23:58 PM »

Still, there’s a huge difference between the two Ys.  The Yevsektzia was part of a plot to destroy not only religious education, but also to eliminate shuls, mikvas, and the very lives of teachers, rabbis, shochtim.  It was part of a movement against not only Jews, but also Russian Orthodox and Catholics.  Yaffed on the other hand has not called for destruction of a religion, and not even destruction of a yeshiva, but just a modification of what is taught there.  Seems like quite a stretch to compare the two.


Yaffed and its leaders have not shied away from making pronouncements about the Chassidic community as a whole on matters that have nothing to do with secular education, in addition to shoehorning other concerns into the education issue (such as covid compliance above). The idea that they are only interested in educating the poor children is a joke, they quite clearly take issue with much more than schooling, even if that is their specific stated goal.

True, they aren't fighting yiddishkeit like the Yevsektzia was, but maybe that's worse in a way. Yaffed seems way more kosher, especially in the eyes of the media and politicians. Like a chazer stretching out its split hooves, Yaffed is a nefarious organization that purports to be in favor of the noblest of goals - educating children.

   
The echo I hear is “You can’t study this!” which had been directed towards us for generations by anti-semitic governments now being directed towards children by their own parents.

This is a great dramatic line that I'd be proud of writing, but it isn't really analogous, is it? It is up to the parent(s) to decide how to raise their children, always has been. You can't compare a government prohibiting children from getting educated based on their religion to parents choosing how best to educate their children.