Author Topic: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY  (Read 74295 times)

Offline moko

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #460 on: June 13, 2022, 02:29:22 PM »
I don't understand what you are saying or why you are replying to me.
your publicly advocating what's good for (what appears to be) another community, who believes in a different path.
They be be dead wrong. But if their path is not directly harming others, it's not for us to decide what's good for another community.

Offline yelped

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #461 on: June 13, 2022, 02:36:28 PM »
your publicly advocating what's good for (what appears to be) another community, who believes in a different path.
They be be dead wrong. But if their path is not directly harming others, it's not for us to decide what's good for another community.
Not sure where you see that. If what you said was true, I disagree with your assertion that a fellow Jew should not care for another Jew.

Offline gozalim

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #462 on: June 13, 2022, 02:52:43 PM »
Not sure where you see that. If what you said was true, I disagree with your assertion that a fellow Jew should not care for another Jew.
"care for" is rarely done in the form of "imposing by force"
if you want to help, offer subsidized ESL courses for graduates (and dropouts) of those communities.

Offline yelped

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #463 on: June 13, 2022, 03:02:18 PM »
"care for" is rarely done in the form of "imposing by force"
if you want to help, offer subsidized ESL courses for graduates (and dropouts) of those communities.
Are you confusing me with Yaffed?

Offline avromie7

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #464 on: June 13, 2022, 03:32:42 PM »
"care for" is rarely done in the form of "imposing by force"
if you want to help, offer subsidized ESL courses for graduates (and dropouts) of those communities.
As Ronald Reagan said "The scariest words in the english language are "I'm from the government and I'm here to help".
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline sguitarist18

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #465 on: June 13, 2022, 04:47:54 PM »
I would add that the world around us grows more bizarre, and the public schools/BOE/teacher's unions seem to be in lockstep with many of the more radical elements. With that as the backdrop, it should be even clearer why some families are concerned about granting any kind of power to those bodies to dictate what should be taught in religious schools.

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #466 on: June 14, 2022, 12:29:02 AM »
What ended with all out persecution started with the czar, at the behest of maskilim, in the name of saving the poor Jews from themselves, inserting his government, and maskilim inspectors, as the arbiters and regulators of the cheder education.
What about efforts during the Haskalah for European governments trying to regulate secular education for Orthodox Jews?
Sure, but much has happened in Jewish history.  I wouldn’t say any of these examples (including mine) are a basis for educational decision-making today.  Thought-provoking, yes, but not persuasive.


Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #467 on: June 14, 2022, 12:36:15 AM »

This is a great dramatic line that I'd be proud of writing,
;D 
One for the Nachas File. (What a co-worker at a new job gave me, to fill with things to read on the inevitable day when everyone tells me I'm doing everything wrong.)

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #468 on: June 14, 2022, 01:06:04 AM »
Yaffed ... we know exactly what the slope is and where it leads to, because they are telling us!
I still don't get it.  What is their final goal?  I'm just hearing secular studies in yeshiva.

Yaffed and its leaders have not shied away from ...shoehorning other concerns into the education issue (such as covid compliance above).
Didn't we have comments to that effect on DDF too? That if people understood science they wouldn’t be gathering in large groups and rejecting the vaccine?  Or did I imagine it?


Quote
The idea that Yaffed is speaking on our behalf, or on behalf of people forced into silence is laughable. You'd be hard-pressed to find a single parent who supports them in any way.

That may be true, but when Moster shows a list of parents who allegedly agree with him, the media see a credible story, especially if the other side just answers “That’s laughable.”  Data is more impressive than anecdotes. 

I'm starting to think that this is why we were asked to sign the letters.  I was annoyed when I first read their talking points, because they seemed full of exaggerations and fear-mongering and failed to convince me so why would they convince NYSED?  But maybe Agudah felt that the contents of the form letter didn't matter as much as the names.  So now they could say, in effect, Sure, Yaffed has their 10 unhappy parents and alumni, but we’ve got these 200,000 who are satisfied with the status quo.

Quote
But they are extremely effective.

I think you exaggerate the influence they have on the BOE and NYSED.  They’re hearing him out, but they’re not stupid.  They can see that he’s advocating for a view that isn’t widely accepted by schools and parents. If he were that effective, this wouldn’t have dragged on for 13 years.

And that is how some of the world sees us.
Just as you see these primitive schools who dont teach secular subjects as you wish they would.
I don’t see any evidence that the Education Department disrespects yidden or considers yeshivas to be primitive.

I mentioned yesterday that NYSED got feedback from 500 stakeholders to help develop the regulations.  They organized these comments into categories, of which I copied a few below.   The comments cover some 20 pages, of which a very small percentage were yaffish, mostly in this first category:

Stakeholders did not always agree on how well some religious schools are balancing academic and religious components of their programs.

o One participant felt that some religious schools could not be considered substantially equivalent to public schools because students could not learn academic topics in any substantive way through Talmud studies.
o A representative from a state-level organization stated that some schools provide less than two hours of academic instruction out of an eleven-hour day.
o An alumnus of a religious school described having attended yeshivas and said that they, along with their family and friends, had been unaware of the Regents exams.
o Another alumnus of a religious school expressed a similar sentiment and argued that their school had ignored academic subjects completely.
o Another alumnus of a religious school stated that students had been well prepared because half the school day was secular.
o A current student said, “I actually attend a Hasidic school and we do take the Regents exams.”

Many participants from religious schools discussed how academic and religious components are woven together throughout their curricula.

o One participant stated that religious and academic studies are not mutually exclusive.
o Several participants from Jewish schools explicitly mentioned how their programs included both academic and religious curricula that allowed students to apply skills such as critical thinking to both academic subjects and the Talmud. They emphasized that academics are central to Jewish education.
o Other educators at Jewish schools discussed how dual curriculum programs resulted in 11-hour school days for students to ensure that all material was covered.
o Multiple parents whose children attend religious schools echoed these comments. One parent stated the schedule of most yeshivas is highly academic while also incorporating religious studies.

Educators, mainly from religious schools, discussed how parents play a large role in schools’ decision-making processes

o A religious school educator stated that the responsibility of holding schools accountable should fall primarily on the parents, rather than the government or the state.
o An educator from a religious middle school stated that parent choice should carry great weight in determining whether schools are providing quality education.

                 
In 20 pages of comments, Yaffed was just one small voice.

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #469 on: June 14, 2022, 01:56:29 AM »
The biggest boys' school doesn't teach any secular studies at all...It has tens of thousands of graduates.... Many uber-successful, many not...

Okay, for now I’ll accept your claim that a yeshiva with no secular studies can produce successful graduates etc.

But how does this shtim with being a law-abiding citizen?

You can try to change the law.  That was the tactic that PEARLS tried in 2019 when the first guidelines appeared.  (I think they said that private schools shouldn’t be asked to be substantially equivalent.)  They cited earlier cases and concluded that “NYSED’s purported guidance is contrary to law and thus null and void.”  Well, that didn’t stop anything.  Another set of regulations was produced.

Or one could accept the law and, like conscientious objectors, deal with the possible penalty.  It's only $10 and/or 10 days in jail, so it’s not the end of the world.  But nobody seems to want to go that route either.

Or one could work to eliminate the most offensive parts of the law, make the standards closer to what yeshivas want to teach anyway, and accept that there will be some details we don't agree are necessary.  As with any school. Which is what seems to be going on with the current regulations.

Quote
Why should they be enforcing any rules at all?

Are you arguing for the special snowflake exemption?  Let the Education Law cover the 3 million regular students in public and private schools in NYS, but we’re different and unique so the law doesn’t apply to us.   Besides, those 3 million kids are probably abused and illiterate and delinquent and poor, so someone’s gotta watch out for them.  But us? We’re good.  Don’t worry.  Besides, our alumni are awesome, and past performance guarantees future results.

I understand that you want complete control over your child's education, but I don't understand how you justify your exemption from the law. 

Offline aygart

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #470 on: June 14, 2022, 08:42:48 AM »
Okay, for now I’ll accept your claim that a yeshiva with no secular studies can produce successful graduates etc.

But how does this shtim with being a law-abiding citizen?

You can try to change the law.  That was the tactic that PEARLS tried in 2019 when the first guidelines appeared.  (I think they said that private schools shouldn’t be asked to be substantially equivalent.)  They cited earlier cases and concluded that “NYSED’s purported guidance is contrary to law and thus null and void.”  Well, that didn’t stop anything.  Another set of regulations was produced.

Or one could accept the law and, like conscientious objectors, deal with the possible penalty.  It's only $10 and/or 10 days in jail, so it’s not the end of the world.  But nobody seems to want to go that route either.

Or one could work to eliminate the most offensive parts of the law, make the standards closer to what yeshivas want to teach anyway, and accept that there will be some details we don't agree are necessary.  As with any school. Which is what seems to be going on with the current regulations.

Are you arguing for the special snowflake exemption?  Let the Education Law cover the 3 million regular students in public and private schools in NYS, but we’re different and unique so the law doesn’t apply to us.   Besides, those 3 million kids are probably abused and illiterate and delinquent and poor, so someone’s gotta watch out for them.  But us? We’re good.  Don’t worry.  Besides, our alumni are awesome, and past performance guarantees future results.

I understand that you want complete control over your child's education, but I don't understand how you justify your exemption from the law.
It should be a standard for public schools but a parent who chooses to home school or send to private school should not be covered.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #471 on: June 14, 2022, 10:11:36 AM »
I still don't get it.  What is their final goal?  I'm just hearing secular studies in yeshiva.
Let's say this is the final goal, I'm opposed to it all the same. The Margolin article speaks to this, but the idea is that messing with chinuch is messing with our very foundation as a G-d fearing community. I don't want any outside influence at all.
Didn't we have comments to that effect on DDF too? That if people understood science they wouldn’t be gathering in large groups and rejecting the vaccine?  Or did I imagine it?
I'm referring to what I mentioned above, that frum people are scientifically illiterate and therefore unable to comprehend a virus invisible to the naked eye.
That may be true, but when Moster shows a list of parents who allegedly agree with him, the media see a credible story, especially if the other side just answers “That’s laughable.”  Data is more impressive than anecdotes. 
I'm not aware of such data though if it is
10 unhappy parents and alumni
then my anecdotes are more of a "data" set than theirs is.

I think you exaggerate the influence they have on the BOE and NYSED.  They’re hearing him out, but they’re not stupid.  They can see that he’s advocating for a view that isn’t widely accepted by schools and parents. If he were that effective, this wouldn’t have dragged on for 13 years.
I don’t see any evidence that the Education Department disrespects yidden or considers yeshivas to be primitive.
Memory fails me now, but a high-ranking politician before New Years answered a question to the effect of, "I'm thinking of those Chassidic children who are suffering by not being given an adequate education." Yes, things have "dragged on" for years, but such is the nature of legislation. We need to fight things now and nip them in the bud. Underestimating Yaffed's impact and being dismissive of the progress because of its lack of speed will doom the yeshiva system, whether it is tomorrow or in a year, or two years.

Or one could accept the law and, like conscientious objectors, deal with the possible penalty.  It's only $10 and/or 10 days in jail, so it’s not the end of the world.  But nobody seems to want to go that route either.

Those penalties are for first-time offenders, it gets worse the longer the child is out of school. And IINM, truancy can result in kids being taken from their parents and placed into foster care. Obviously the state will not do that to thousands of Jewish kids, but they could do it to some to set an example. As mentioned above, my grandparents were almost arrested because they sent my father to a school without secular studies. They've both passed away, so I can't give you more details on what "almost arrested" means, but it wasn't fun.


But how does this shtim with being a law-abiding citizen?
I don't believe the law should exist for private schools. But even if it is in existence, there are many, many laws that are on the books and not enforced. The NYS BOE is investing a heck of a lot to work on this issue with scant evidence it even is an issue at all. The Rebbe was consistent about doing things according to the law of the land. Even in his talks about Jewish persecution by the Soviet regime, he spoke about how that persecution ran counter to Soviet laws. There are numerous letters and responses from the Rebbe to his Chassidim urging them to follow the law even in grey areas where it would seem there might be room to "play around" for the benefit of the institutions.

But then it came to chinuch, and the Rebbe wanted a school without secular studies which was illegal. If the law goes against Yiddishkeit, there are times when we break the law to follow Yiddishkeit. Under the Communists in the USSR, that meant death, and many Chassidim languished in Siberia or were killed for providing chinuch to children. This is not ancient history, these are grandparents, great grandparents, uncles, aunts, and cousins of many people on this forum.

I'm not an expert about when it is time to go against the law, but if the Rebbe wanted such a school, and told my grandparents to keep my father enrolled even after the authorities were harassing them, then I believe this is something worth fighting for, whether that means changing the law or ensuring the authorities don't use any law to mess with our chinuch.

You might think it extreme for a community to be up in arms about the state requiring a little bit of secular education. You are entitled to your feelings. But I should be entitled to keep my religious beliefs, extreme as they are, so long as they are not harming anyone else.

Which brings us to

Are you arguing for the special snowflake exemption?  Let the Education Law cover the 3 million regular students in public and private schools in NYS, but we’re different and unique so the law doesn’t apply to us.   Besides, those 3 million kids are probably abused and illiterate and delinquent and poor, so someone’s gotta watch out for them.  But us? We’re good.  Don’t worry.  Besides, our alumni are awesome, and past performance guarantees future results.

Yes, let the education laws set by the government cover all those who are in government-run education systems. Leave the private schools alone. Past performance doesn't guarantee future results, but more than a century of past performance in NY is about as close to a guarantee that a prediction can be. I didn't say 3 million kids are abused and delinquent, I said you have no evidence that yeshivah graduates are abused or delinquent to come down on them. I further said that if you run a comparison, you know the public schools will fare worse. So before the BOE "fixes" the yeshiva system to ensure they are "substantially equivalent", let them make sure that the overall public school results are something that anyone would ever want their kids to be "equivalent" to.


Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #472 on: June 14, 2022, 12:18:59 PM »
As mentioned above, my grandparents were almost arrested because they sent my father to a school without secular studies. 
So it was about 1950, right?  Three fathers were charged with violating compulsory education law, Aaron Donner, Zalman Blesofsky and Aaron M. Aber.  Fined $10 each, but sentence was suspended and they were put on probation for a year.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 12:26:00 PM by biobook »

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #473 on: June 14, 2022, 12:22:22 PM »
So it was about 1950, right?

56/57 IINM

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #474 on: June 14, 2022, 12:31:32 PM »
56/57 IINM
The only case I found in newspapers was the earlier one in 1950 and upheld on appeal in 1951.   If they were almost arrested in 1956 it might not have made the msm, but probably a continuation of the same story.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #475 on: June 14, 2022, 04:09:49 PM »
The only case I found in newspapers was the earlier one in 1950 and upheld on appeal in 1951.   If they were almost arrested in 1956 it might not have made the msm, but probably a continuation of the same story.

They were not written about in MSM AFAIK. The school only opened in '56. My father was the second student to be enrolled. I don't know exactly how long after the authorities got involved, but it was likely 2-3 years later. It was spearheaded by a frum DOE official who happened to see my father waiting on a school bus and asked him if he learned limudei chol, to which my father answered, "chas v'shalom!" So I'm not sure it had any connection at all to the story you read.

Please!  The rest of the story!  Who, what, why?

I just spoke to my father.  Obviously, he was a young child at the time, so he doesn't know all the details, but this is the gist of it.

My father was on a school bus when the driver parked in front of 770 to run in for something. My father sat in the driver's seat and turned the key to see all the buttons and dials light up. A frum-looking guy came by and started asking my father questions. He asked him what he was learning in school, and asked him some questions about hameiniach es hakad, which my father answered proudly. He asked him his name and what school he went to. Then he asked if they learned any limudei chol, to which my father said, "chas v'shalom" proudly. The Rebbe then walked up to 770,  stopped, and gave my father a long hard stare. The bus driver soon came running out of 770 and my father excitedly said, "do you know who I just saw?!" The bus driver replied, "Who do you think told me someone is monkeying around on my bus!"

That person who questioned my father was a DOE employee, who then met with my grandparents and told them they were legally required to enroll him in a school with secular studies. On the Rebbe's advice, my grandparents refused. After a couple of meetings with my grandmother, he resigned from his position, and a non-Jewish DOE employee took over the case. It went to court, where my grandparents were given a certain date by which to enroll my father in a different school or they would be jailed. The Rebbe once again advised them to refuse. Before that date, my father was hit by a car and hospitalized. A doctor then examined him and determined he was unable to study too many subjects in school. (Three guesses for the Chabad folks who the doctor was.  ;D)

My father remained in the school for about a year before they took up the case again, and this time had him evaluated by a doctor of their choosing, who determined my father was capable of studying secular studies and Jewish studies. This time, the Rebbe advised my grandparents to enroll him in Lubavitcher Yeshivah (known then as Bedford & Dean) and for my father to learn secular studies "af a shpitzer messer" (the bare minimum).

In ULY his secular teacher was Rabbi Marlow, who used to teach my father mishnayos and the like while the rest of the class was working on English or math.

What happened to the other students and their parents? The laws only applied to kids of a certain age, and most students were younger. The ones that were his age or older were immediately enrolled in ULY when the DOE official started the whole thing. My father does not know if they were enrolled on the Rebbe's advice or if the parents just did it without asking. If I were to guess, it would be the latter.

Offline biobook

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #476 on: June 14, 2022, 06:34:42 PM »
A wonderful story!  :D Thanks for taking the time to get it down.

Sounds like a truant officer. If we kids kvetched about not wanting to go to school, my mother would look horrified and say "The truant officer will get you!"  I thought it was a bogeyman just to scare us, but she did grow up in Brooklyn, so maybe she had seen truant officers hanging around.

Offline avromie7

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #477 on: June 14, 2022, 06:49:04 PM »
My father was on a school bus when the driver parked in front of 770 to run in for something. My father sat in the driver's seat and turned the key to see all the buttons and dials light up. A frum-looking guy came by and started asking my father questions. He asked him what he was learning in school, and asked him some questions about hameiniach es hakad, which my father answered proudly. He asked him his name and what school he went to. Then he asked if they learned any limudei chol, to which my father said, "chas v'shalom" proudly. The Rebbe then walked up to 770,  stopped, and gave my father a long hard stare. The bus driver soon came running out of 770 and my father excitedly said, "do you know who I just saw?!" The bus driver replied, "Who do you think told me someone is monkeying around on my bus!"
This is definitely the best part of the story.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Moshe123

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Offline Moshe123

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #479 on: June 14, 2022, 06:58:21 PM »
They were not written about in MSM AFAIK. The school only opened in '56. My father was the second student to be enrolled. I don't know exactly how long after the authorities got involved, but it was likely 2-3 years later. It was spearheaded by a frum DOE official who happened to see my father waiting on a school bus and asked him if he learned limudei chol, to which my father answered, "chas v'shalom!" So I'm not sure it had any connection at all to the story you read.

I just spoke to my father.  Obviously, he was a young child at the time, so he doesn't know all the details, but this is the gist of it.

My father was on a school bus when the driver parked in front of 770 to run in for something. My father sat in the driver's seat and turned the key to see all the buttons and dials light up. A frum-looking guy came by and started asking my father questions. He asked him what he was learning in school, and asked him some questions about hameiniach es hakad, which my father answered proudly. He asked him his name and what school he went to. Then he asked if they learned any limudei chol, to which my father said, "chas v'shalom" proudly. The Rebbe then walked up to 770,  stopped, and gave my father a long hard stare. The bus driver soon came running out of 770 and my father excitedly said, "do you know who I just saw?!" The bus driver replied, "Who do you think told me someone is monkeying around on my bus!"

That person who questioned my father was a DOE employee, who then met with my grandparents and told them they were legally required to enroll him in a school with secular studies. On the Rebbe's advice, my grandparents refused. After a couple of meetings with my grandmother, he resigned from his position, and a non-Jewish DOE employee took over the case. It went to court, where my grandparents were given a certain date by which to enroll my father in a different school or they would be jailed. The Rebbe once again advised them to refuse. Before that date, my father was hit by a car and hospitalized. A doctor then examined him and determined he was unable to study too many subjects in school. (Three guesses for the Chabad folks who the doctor was.  ;D)

My father remained in the school for about a year before they took up the case again, and this time had him evaluated by a doctor of their choosing, who determined my father was capable of studying secular studies and Jewish studies. This time, the Rebbe advised my grandparents to enroll him in Lubavitcher Yeshivah (known then as Bedford & Dean) and for my father to learn secular studies "af a shpitzer messer" (the bare minimum).

In ULY his secular teacher was Rabbi Marlow, who used to teach my father mishnayos and the like while the rest of the class was working on English or math.

What happened to the other students and their parents? The laws only applied to kids of a certain age, and most students were younger. The ones that were his age or older were immediately enrolled in ULY when the DOE official started the whole thing. My father does not know if they were enrolled on the Rebbe's advice or if the parents just did it without asking. If I were to guess, it would be the latter.

Wow!