Author Topic: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY  (Read 13146 times)

Offline CountValentine

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #80 on: July 12, 2019, 01:26:32 PM »
Here's some background reading (though you'd probably need to read the entire story, not just this excerpt).

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2990/jewish/Chapter-IV-The-Interview.htm
All I did was ask a very basic simple question. If you don't want to answer it I fully understand.
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #81 on: July 12, 2019, 01:28:20 PM »
No need to tell us you don't have a HS diploma as we can tell from this logic.  :)

Wow. First time I ever heard that logical reasoning has anything to do with a high school diploma. I guess that's why some people's logic might be so flawed, as it comes from their high school diploma.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #82 on: July 12, 2019, 01:32:18 PM »
Wow. First time I ever heard that logical reasoning has anything to do with a high school diploma. I guess that's why some people's logic might be so flawed, as it comes from their high school diploma.
Not mine.  ;)
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Offline grodnoking

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #83 on: July 12, 2019, 01:33:45 PM »
More than half the time for religion is a bit much.
The 3 hours is clearly getting more than just the job done.
I'm not who you think I am.

Offline grodnoking

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #84 on: July 12, 2019, 01:36:41 PM »
An alternative middle ground we be results on various standardized test. If they can meet standards in less time all the power to them.
A yeshiva that teaches a proper 3 hours of chol 4 days a week will ace a standardized test.
I'm not who you think I am.

Offline shapsam

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #85 on: July 12, 2019, 01:39:53 PM »
I hate when people throw this argument around - while there's definitely validity to it, I think too many people treat it as an all or nothing proposition, it's not. Some examples:

- That money is in transportation dollars for kids who get busing to Yeshivas
- That money is in subsidizing Breakfast and Lunch in some poorer communities
- That money is in the special education services that kids with IEPs receive.

So while most Yeshiva-Heavy districts spend less on average for a Yeshiva kid in their district, they do still spend a lot, likewise, while a Yeshiva Parent that is a taxpayer probably gets less value than his neighbor who's kids go to public school, but is still getting value from their school taxes
-1


Offline Yonah

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #86 on: July 12, 2019, 01:41:34 PM »
Bump as I think @ExGingi missed my clueless question.  :)
Think you may have missed my post from earlier...

To ExGingi's point - Gemara itself, fulfills several secular subjects:
- Critical Thinking  / Critical Literacy
- Law
- Discrete Mathematics (Logic)
- Although it's a stretch, it also teaches History (via aggadata) and Social Studies (i.e. forms of government, courts, social structure of second temple society)

.. studying Talmud isn't just like reading a textbook, but rather builds logic and reasoning skills, and teaches history, math, law and social studies along the way.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #87 on: July 12, 2019, 01:49:43 PM »
To ExGingi's point - Gemara itself, fulfills several secular subjects:
- Critical Thinking  / Critical Literacy
- Law
- Discrete Mathematics (Logic)
- Although it's a stretch, it also teaches History (via aggadata) and Social Studies (i.e. forms of government, courts, social structure of second temple society)

Won't teach American history. But not sure how much a high school diploma would help. I would imagine DJT posses one but doubt CV would give him a passing mark.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Dan

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #88 on: July 12, 2019, 01:51:34 PM »
I had 2-2.5 hours of daily secular studies in high school and only had 3 years of it. Still managed a 1420 on the SAT, skipped college, and got a 3.98 GPA in business grad school.

4.4 hours seems excessive. Negotiating tactic?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #89 on: July 12, 2019, 01:57:26 PM »
I had 2-2.5 hours of daily secular studies in high school and only had 3 years of it. Still managed a 1420 on the SAT, skipped college, and got a 3.98 GPA in business grad school.

4.4 hours seems excessive. Negotiating tactic?
If the yeshivas were willing to conceed to 2.5 hours and actually do it, I think the government wouldn't be making a big deal.

I'd also say that the majority of kids can't succeed with DIY education models so anecdotes aren't so useful.

Offline Dan

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #90 on: July 12, 2019, 01:58:18 PM »
If the yeshivas were willing to conceed to 2.5 hours and actually do it, I think the government wouldn't be making a big deal.

Negotiating tactic?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline shapsam

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #91 on: July 12, 2019, 01:59:49 PM »
I had 2-2.5 hours of daily secular studies in high school and only had 3 years of it. Still managed a 1420 on the SAT, skipped college, and got a 3.98 GPA in business grad school.

4.4 hours seems excessive. Negotiating tactic?
It's not a negotiating tactic as there is very little communication from the education department to the yeshivos, and it was already supposed to be implemented but the court voided it.

Offline shapsam

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #92 on: July 12, 2019, 02:01:01 PM »
If the yeshivas were willing to conceed to 2.5 hours and actually do it, I think the government wouldn't be making a big deal.

-1
The amount of hours required is a very small part of these guidelines.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #93 on: July 12, 2019, 02:02:46 PM »
-1
The amount of hours required is a very small part of these guidelines.
What else is objectionable? It's not they're Chas vshalom requiring evolution to be taught.

Offline Yonah

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #94 on: July 12, 2019, 02:05:11 PM »
-1


You're just helping me make my point - it's not an all or nothing proposition.

First of all, I think your numbers are off:
According to this article - https://nypost.com/2019/01/19/nyc-yeshivas-collect-more-than-100m-a-year-in-public-funds/, Yeshivas in NYC receive about $100 million in funding from the DOE. And according to this one: https://nypost.com/2018/10/10/yeshiva-student-population-explodes-in-nyc/, there are 110,000 students in Yeshiva.

And yes, the 9k/year per yeshiva student is about a third of the 25k per public school student, but how about we look at it this way - the average property tax in NYC is still under $10k/year. So even if you have 1 kid in Yeshiva, you're already almost getting your full property tax value as a benefit.

Even if I take your numbers as is:
- It's comparing apples to oranges (the $1500 per yeshiva student for books and busing is not comparable to all of the services and teacher salary and benefits that are needed to educate a child all day in the public school system).

- If you pay $7.5k in property taxes and have 5 kids in Yeshiva, you're breaking even.

And both of the tweets you cited, completely ignore kids getting special education services, which is significantly more expensive.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #95 on: July 12, 2019, 02:08:00 PM »
You're just helping me make my point - it's not an all or nothing proposition.

First of all, I think your numbers are off:
According to this article - https://nypost.com/2019/01/19/nyc-yeshivas-collect-more-than-100m-a-year-in-public-funds/, Yeshivas in NYC receive about $100 million in funding from the DOE. And according to this one: https://nypost.com/2018/10/10/yeshiva-student-population-explodes-in-nyc/, there are 110,000 students in Yeshiva.

And yes, the 9k/year per yeshiva student is about a third of the 25k per public school student, but how about we look at it this way - the average property tax in NYC is still under $10k/year. So even if you have 1 kid in Yeshiva, you're already almost getting your full property tax value as a benefit.

Even if I take your numbers as is:
- It's comparing apples to oranges (the $1500 per yeshiva student for books and busing is not comparable to all of the services and teacher salary and benefits that are needed to educate a child all day in the public school system).

- If you pay $7.5k in property taxes and have 5 kids in Yeshiva, you're breaking even.

And both of the tweets you cited, completely ignore kids getting special education services, which is significantly more expensive.
Nobody is entitled to tax money. A 55 year old iwth no children pays the same as a 35 year old with 6 kids.

Taxes pay for whatever the government said. You can't take money for schools and use it to buy seforim. You also shouldn't be able to get money to fund schools that don't meet state requirements. It's that simple.

Offline Yonah

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2019, 02:08:25 PM »
I had 2-2.5 hours of daily secular studies in high school and only had 3 years of it. Still managed a 1420 on the SAT, skipped college, and got a 3.98 GPA in business grad school.

4.4 hours seems excessive. Negotiating tactic?

It would seem that way - also a public posturing tactic. i.e. if we're going to take a stance, let's stand on the official guidelines.

Offline Yonah

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #97 on: July 12, 2019, 02:15:14 PM »
Nobody is entitled to tax money.....Taxes pay for whatever the government said. You can't take money for schools and use it to buy seforim.
With you here 100%
A 55 year old iwth no children pays the same as a 35 year old with 6 kids.
Yes, but a 65 year old might not in NYS -https://tax.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4169/~/what-is-enhanced-star%3F
 
You also shouldn't be able to get money to fund schools that don't meet state requirements. It's that simple.

While I agree with you on this point, I think that the overall number of 4.5 hours is a bit much. I think a better example would be using state testing results instead.

Again, my original point about the taxes was that I hate when people make the tax value argument, because of both the argument you laid out above - there is no true entitlement- as well as the idea that "Jews get nothing for our school taxes" when that's by and large not true.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #98 on: July 12, 2019, 02:37:16 PM »
Think you may have missed my post from earlier...

.. studying Talmud isn't just like reading a textbook, but rather builds logic and reasoning skills, and teaches history, math, law and social studies along the way.
I didn't miss any point and just asked a simple question.

It is great that the Talmud teaches all those different things. Lets just pick a subject, math. Do you believe you can learn as much about math from the Talmud as from a HS math class?
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Offline sguitarist18

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #99 on: July 12, 2019, 02:37:46 PM »
In public, there has no been a good faith effort to actually work on the length. Sure, if we're talking 4.5 vs. 3, that's fair. But the community isn't even publicly behind that.
-1

Major Rabbanim and Rosh Yeshivas went to Albany to discuss, and although they had originally been assured that the new guidelines would be a joint effort, the state went back on their word.

Overall, the point is that the state can certainly set expectations of what our students should know, there's no reason for them to dictate how we teach it, and how much time we spend on it.