Author Topic: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY  (Read 10343 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #90 on: July 12, 2019, 01:58:18 PM »
If the yeshivas were willing to conceed to 2.5 hours and actually do it, I think the government wouldn't be making a big deal.

Negotiating tactic?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline shapsam

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #91 on: July 12, 2019, 01:59:49 PM »
I had 2-2.5 hours of daily secular studies in high school and only had 3 years of it. Still managed a 1420 on the SAT, skipped college, and got a 3.98 GPA in business grad school.

4.4 hours seems excessive. Negotiating tactic?
It's not a negotiating tactic as there is very little communication from the education department to the yeshivos, and it was already supposed to be implemented but the court voided it.

Offline shapsam

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #92 on: July 12, 2019, 02:01:01 PM »
If the yeshivas were willing to conceed to 2.5 hours and actually do it, I think the government wouldn't be making a big deal.

-1
The amount of hours required is a very small part of these guidelines.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #93 on: July 12, 2019, 02:02:46 PM »
-1
The amount of hours required is a very small part of these guidelines.
What else is objectionable? It's not they're Chas vshalom requiring evolution to be taught.

Offline Yonah

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #94 on: July 12, 2019, 02:05:11 PM »
-1


You're just helping me make my point - it's not an all or nothing proposition.

First of all, I think your numbers are off:
According to this article - https://nypost.com/2019/01/19/nyc-yeshivas-collect-more-than-100m-a-year-in-public-funds/, Yeshivas in NYC receive about $100 million in funding from the DOE. And according to this one: https://nypost.com/2018/10/10/yeshiva-student-population-explodes-in-nyc/, there are 110,000 students in Yeshiva.

And yes, the 9k/year per yeshiva student is about a third of the 25k per public school student, but how about we look at it this way - the average property tax in NYC is still under $10k/year. So even if you have 1 kid in Yeshiva, you're already almost getting your full property tax value as a benefit.

Even if I take your numbers as is:
- It's comparing apples to oranges (the $1500 per yeshiva student for books and busing is not comparable to all of the services and teacher salary and benefits that are needed to educate a child all day in the public school system).

- If you pay $7.5k in property taxes and have 5 kids in Yeshiva, you're breaking even.

And both of the tweets you cited, completely ignore kids getting special education services, which is significantly more expensive.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #95 on: July 12, 2019, 02:08:00 PM »
You're just helping me make my point - it's not an all or nothing proposition.

First of all, I think your numbers are off:
According to this article - https://nypost.com/2019/01/19/nyc-yeshivas-collect-more-than-100m-a-year-in-public-funds/, Yeshivas in NYC receive about $100 million in funding from the DOE. And according to this one: https://nypost.com/2018/10/10/yeshiva-student-population-explodes-in-nyc/, there are 110,000 students in Yeshiva.

And yes, the 9k/year per yeshiva student is about a third of the 25k per public school student, but how about we look at it this way - the average property tax in NYC is still under $10k/year. So even if you have 1 kid in Yeshiva, you're already almost getting your full property tax value as a benefit.

Even if I take your numbers as is:
- It's comparing apples to oranges (the $1500 per yeshiva student for books and busing is not comparable to all of the services and teacher salary and benefits that are needed to educate a child all day in the public school system).

- If you pay $7.5k in property taxes and have 5 kids in Yeshiva, you're breaking even.

And both of the tweets you cited, completely ignore kids getting special education services, which is significantly more expensive.
Nobody is entitled to tax money. A 55 year old iwth no children pays the same as a 35 year old with 6 kids.

Taxes pay for whatever the government said. You can't take money for schools and use it to buy seforim. You also shouldn't be able to get money to fund schools that don't meet state requirements. It's that simple.

Offline Yonah

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2019, 02:08:25 PM »
I had 2-2.5 hours of daily secular studies in high school and only had 3 years of it. Still managed a 1420 on the SAT, skipped college, and got a 3.98 GPA in business grad school.

4.4 hours seems excessive. Negotiating tactic?

It would seem that way - also a public posturing tactic. i.e. if we're going to take a stance, let's stand on the official guidelines.

Offline Yonah

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #97 on: July 12, 2019, 02:15:14 PM »
Nobody is entitled to tax money.....Taxes pay for whatever the government said. You can't take money for schools and use it to buy seforim.
With you here 100%
A 55 year old iwth no children pays the same as a 35 year old with 6 kids.
Yes, but a 65 year old might not in NYS -https://tax.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4169/~/what-is-enhanced-star%3F
 
You also shouldn't be able to get money to fund schools that don't meet state requirements. It's that simple.

While I agree with you on this point, I think that the overall number of 4.5 hours is a bit much. I think a better example would be using state testing results instead.

Again, my original point about the taxes was that I hate when people make the tax value argument, because of both the argument you laid out above - there is no true entitlement- as well as the idea that "Jews get nothing for our school taxes" when that's by and large not true.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #98 on: July 12, 2019, 02:37:16 PM »
Think you may have missed my post from earlier...

.. studying Talmud isn't just like reading a textbook, but rather builds logic and reasoning skills, and teaches history, math, law and social studies along the way.
I didn't miss any point and just asked a simple question.

It is great that the Talmud teaches all those different things. Lets just pick a subject, math. Do you believe you can learn as much about math from the Talmud as from a HS math class?
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Offline sguitarist18

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #99 on: July 12, 2019, 02:37:46 PM »
In public, there has no been a good faith effort to actually work on the length. Sure, if we're talking 4.5 vs. 3, that's fair. But the community isn't even publicly behind that.
-1

Major Rabbanim and Rosh Yeshivas went to Albany to discuss, and although they had originally been assured that the new guidelines would be a joint effort, the state went back on their word.

Overall, the point is that the state can certainly set expectations of what our students should know, there's no reason for them to dictate how we teach it, and how much time we spend on it.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #100 on: July 12, 2019, 02:39:53 PM »
I had 2-2.5 hours of daily secular studies in high school and only had 3 years of it. Still managed a 1420 on the SAT, skipped college, and got a 3.98 GPA in business grad school.
What if you had 4 hours of daily secular studies, 4 years of HS and went to college. You still think you would be posting in JS?  :P
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #101 on: July 12, 2019, 02:40:13 PM »
-1

Major Rabbanim and Rosh Yeshivas went to Albany to discuss, and although they had originally been assured that the new guidelines would be a joint effort, the state went back on their word.

Overall, the point is that the state can certainly set expectations of what our students should know, there's no reason for them to dictate how we teach it, and how much time we spend on it.
Things like math and reading aren't just a bunch of facts you can gauge on a standardized test. They're skills that need practice.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #102 on: July 12, 2019, 02:41:34 PM »
What if you had 4 hours of daily secular studies, 4 years of HS and went to college. You still think you would be posting in JS?  :P
Did you have those?
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #103 on: July 12, 2019, 02:43:19 PM »
Did you have those?
No. You want me to apply your logic now?  :)
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Offline jj1000

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #104 on: July 12, 2019, 02:43:56 PM »
What if you had 4 hours of daily secular studies, 4 years of HS and went to college. You still think you would be posting in JS?  :P
He would prob be practicing "do you want fries with that", as many people who had 4 hours of daily secular studies, 4 years of HS and went to college.
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