Author Topic: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY  (Read 5394 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #120 on: July 12, 2019, 03:39:17 PM »
Kids coming out of chassidishe schos do not have these skills. Anyone who left that community (and therefore needs to function in 'normal' society) will tell you that.
Keep in mind that many and very possibly most of those who left the community were not those who excelled in their studies of any sort and are likely not to have been prepared no matter which school they attended.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Online shaulyaakov

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #121 on: July 12, 2019, 03:40:51 PM »
Keep in mind that many and very possibly most of those who left the community were not those who excelled in their studies of any sort and are likely not to have been prepared no matter which school they attended.
[citation needed]

Many of them eventually get degrees so they probably are more academically capable than you give them credit for.

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I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Online zh cohen

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #123 on: July 12, 2019, 03:53:55 PM »
Kids coming out of chassidishe schos do not have these skills. Anyone who left that community (and therefore needs to function in 'normal' society) will tell you that.

So deal with that. These rules don't and certainly not in the least intrusive way.

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #124 on: July 12, 2019, 03:58:03 PM »
So deal with that. These rules don't and certainly not in the least intrusive way.
Mandating that yeshivas offer substantially equivalent secular studies is a way of dealing with it. They think length of time spent in instruction is the best way to do that.

Offline aygart

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #125 on: July 12, 2019, 04:07:01 PM »
[citation needed]

Many of them eventually get degrees so they probably are more academically capable than you give them credit for.
I personally have seen enough to be considered many.

Capable? Who spoke about their capabilities? I am sure they are very capable.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Online zh cohen

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #126 on: July 12, 2019, 04:24:14 PM »
Mandating that yeshivas offer substantially equivalent secular studies is a way of dealing with it. They think length of time spent in instruction is the best way to do that.

The substantially equivalency standard has been the law for a long time. The state tried to claim that these guidelines are just a clarification on the definition if "substantially equivalent" and the court rejected that argument.

The problems are of enforcement and these rules don't fix that

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #127 on: July 12, 2019, 04:35:39 PM »
The substantially equivalency standard has been the law for a long time. The state tried to claim that these guidelines are just a clarification on the definition if "substantially equivalent" and the court rejected that argument.

The problems are of enforcement and these rules don't fix that
The court rejected who has the authority to make the change, not the concept of the change.


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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #128 on: July 12, 2019, 04:46:39 PM »
The court rejected who has the authority to make the change, not the concept of the change.

The state claimed that these rules were not a change, but a clarification of the existing standard (which is "substantially equivalent"). The court ruled that this is a change and therefore had to go through the regulatory process, but did not address the question of whether the rules themselves are legal.

Offline Yonah

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #129 on: July 15, 2019, 12:47:29 PM »
Having talked about this right before shabbos, this topic boiled over into my shabbos meal conversations - a couple of more observations, but the general gist - it should be about quality vs quantity, and one of the best ways to ensure that is via testing.

Some additional thoughts:
- The 4.5 hours a day will be difficult to reach for most Jewish schools (even modern orthodox and non-frum day schools that have a 50/50 split of the time) - even if you can include Hebrew Language instruction as Foreign language, and include gemara "soft skills" in the 4.5 hours.

- There are plenty of Yeshivas that have limited secular education, but focus on quality, enabling their students to go on to some form of college, and/or professional schools.

- While we may that schools will be 'teaching to the test' - these are still types of skills that these students need, and will benefit from.

Online chinagel

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #130 on: July 15, 2019, 01:23:54 PM »
Having talked about this right before shabbos, this topic boiled over into my shabbos meal conversations - a couple of more observations, but the general gist - it should be about quality vs quantity, and one of the best ways to ensure that is via testing.

Some additional thoughts:
- The 4.5 hours a day will be difficult to reach for most Jewish schools (even modern orthodox and non-frum day schools that have a 50/50 split of the time) - even if you can include Hebrew Language instruction as Foreign language, and include gemara "soft skills" in the 4.5 hours.

- There are plenty of Yeshivas that have limited secular education, but focus on quality, enabling their students to go on to some form of college, and/or professional schools.

- While we may that schools will be 'teaching to the test' - these are still types of skills that these students need, and will benefit from.
If it's about quality they're going to need to defund the public schools.

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« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 01:44:36 PM by gingyguy »
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Offline Yonah

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #132 on: July 15, 2019, 01:41:30 PM »
If it's about quality they're going to need to defund the public schools.

That all depends where you live :)

Offline yr

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Re: AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY
« Reply #133 on: July 15, 2019, 01:44:30 PM »
We all know that the government really has no  interest in this altogether but were forced to act when confronted with the facts that some boy’s schools do not teach any secular studies. Our focus should be on those schools that are attracting this unwanted attention rather than fighting on their behalf.
[/b]

This is the biggest issue imo. Our organizations seem to be accommodating to the lowest common denominator, so effectively they are defending a cause (i.e. close to zero secular studies) that their core constituents don't agree with.

Obviously, at the point we are now, basically all yeshivas are under attack, especially since most have a four day week for secular studies.

It seems to me that a tiny percentage of yeshivas are dragging the entire system through this, and if those yeshivas would've shaped up 5 years ago when the issue first came up, we wouldn't be where we are today.

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