AN URGENT APPEAL TO THE NY YESHIVA COMMUNITY

[Yonah]

Interesting,

 I read the link to the abstract of the proposal - https://www.dos.ny.gov/info/register/2019/jul3.pdf - I couldn't find anything about there being a time requirement. I read the requirements:

o during grades 1 through 6, mathematics, including arithmetic, science, and technology; English language arts; social studies; the arts; career
development and occupational studies; health education, physical education, and family and consumer sciences. Instruction in these subjects may
be integrated or incorporated into the syllabus or syllabi of other courses;
o during grades 7 and 8, mathematics (two units of study); English
language arts (two units of study); social studies (two units of study); science (two units of study); career and technical education, wherein the unit
of study requirement may be initiated in grade 5 (one and three-fourths
units of study); physical education (similar courses of instruction to those
required in public schools pursuant to section 135.4 of this Title); health
education (one-half unit of study); visual arts (one-half unit of study);
music (one-half unit of study); library and information skills, which may
in incorporated or integrated into any other subjects (the equivalent of one
period per week in grades 7 and ; career development and occupational
studies, which may be incorporated or integrated into any other subjects;
o during grades 9 through 12, instruction in English (four units of
study); social studies (four units of study); mathematics (three units of
study); science (three units of study); health (one-half unit of study); physical education (two units of study); the arts (one unit of study);

So what I think this means is:
From Grades 1 to 6: You need Math, Science, Social Studies, and English
From Grades 7 to 12:
- You need 5 years of math and science
- You need 6 years of English and Social Studies

I am under the impression that most Yeshivish schools ( Chofetz Chaim, Chaim Berlin, Torah Vodas, Torah Temimah) offer pretty much that - so how does this change the status quo?

[yuneeq]

Interesting,

 I read the link to the abstract of the proposal - https://www.dos.ny.gov/info/register/2019/jul3.pdf - I couldn't find anything about there being a time requirement. I read the requirements:
So what I think this means is:
From Grades 1 to 6: You need Math, Science, Social Studies, and English
From Grades 7 to 12:
- You need 5 years of math and science
- You need 6 years of English and Social Studies

I am under the impression that most Yeshivish schools ( Chofetz Chaim, Chaim Berlin, Torah Vodas, Torah Temimah) offer pretty much that - so how does this change the status quo?

Your link mentions required units of study, which I see referenced in this link:
http://www.nysed.gov/common/nysed/files/programs/bilingual-ed/5-26-2015_unitsofstudyglossaryfinal.pdf

"Units of Study: Required number of minutes of instruction per week throughout the school year or the equivalent. One unit of study as per CR Part 100.1(a) means at least 180 minutes of instruction per week throughout the school year, or the equivalent."

I don't know how it all adds up, but I'm guessing they did the calculations and ended up at 4-5 hours.

[Yonah]

45min x 4 per week = 180 min or 3 hours

Math, Science, Social Studies, English = 4x45, which is 3 hours per day or 12 hours per week total.

[shaulyaakov]

45min x 4 per week = 180 min or 3 hours

Math, Science, Social Studies, English = 4x45, which is 3 hours per day or 12 hours per week total.

Where do you get the requirements being 4x per week at 45 minutes per class?

[yuneeq]

Where do you get the requirements being 4x per week at 45 minutes per class?

He said it in reverse, but 180 minutes a week can be split up to 45 minutes a day.
What I don't see is if 180 minutes/week works for Jewish school schedule, maybe with our holidays it comes out to fewer days and therefore more hours per day?

[shaulyaakov]

He said it in reverse, but 180 minutes a week can be split up to 45 minutes a day.
What I don't see is if 180 minutes/week works for Jewish school schedule, maybe with our holidays it comes out to fewer days and therefore more hours per day?

For starters, I'm not sure why yeshivas don't teach 5 days of secular studies, other than cost. If they wanted to, they could either teach 1.5 hours each on Sunday or Fridays, or make a schedule with 2-3 hours on one of those days. 3 hours of secular studies in a Friday during DST is completely reasonable.

[yuneeq]

For starters, I'm not sure why yeshivas don't teach 5 days of secular studies, other than cost. If they wanted to, they could either teach 1.5 hours each on Sunday or Fridays, or make a schedule with 2-3 hours on one of those days. 3 hours of secular studies in a Friday during DST is completely reasonable.

Ah yes, the Jewish school kids really need to sit in class an extra 3 hours a week, especially when it’s sunny outside. Then we just plug them into the wall and hope the robots are ready for school by Sunday.

[shaulyaakov]

Ah yes, the Jewish school kids really need to sit in class an extra 3 hours a week, especially when it’s sunny outside. Then we just plug them into the wall and hope the robots are ready for school by Sunday.

Or cancel school on Sunday?

The point is that schools are trying to argue that their 12 or fewer hours a week are equivalent in quality to 25 hours of public schools, which is a much harder case to make whe you teach 4 days a week instead of 5.

[CountValentine]

Jewish kids go to school on Sundays? What days during the week do they have off? Saturday and any other days?

[yuneeq]

Jewish kids go to school on Sundays? What days during the week do they have off? Saturday and any other days?

Saturday, that's it.

[CountValentine]

Saturday, that's it.

Ouch! What time they start/end each day?

[yuneeq]

Ouch! What time they start/end each day?

Start - 9am

End -
Sunday - usually 1pm
Mon/Thursday - usually 4:30 pm
Friday - usually 12

[shaulyaakov]

Jewish kids go to school on Sundays? What days during the week do they have off? Saturday and any other days?

The yeshivas in question teach Judaic subjects 6 days a week and secular studies M-TH for boys. Girls generally don't have school on Sundays.

More modern schools generally have both secular and Judaic 5x per week M-F, though even among those schools, some boys schools would follow a similar schedule regarding days per week (though by and large teach more secular studies per day - generally 4-5 hrs per day M-F and less on Fridays if they teach secular studies on Fridays.)

[aygart]

Start - 9am

End -
Sunday - usually 1pm
Mon/Thursday - usually 4:30 pm
Friday - usually 12

My boys have almost the same schedule on Sunday as the rest of the week including secular studies.

[grodnoking]

45min x 4 per week = 180 min or 3 hours

Math, Science, Social Studies, English = 4x45, which is 3 hours per day or 12 hours per week total.

That's what it is currently. I think they are adding a whole slew of extra studies to teach which will add on more time.

Ah yes, the Jewish school kids really need to sit in class an extra 3 hours a week, especially when it’s sunny outside. Then we just plug them into the wall and hope the robots are ready for school by Sunday.

Well said.

The yeshivas in question teach Judaic subjects 6 days a week and secular studies M-TH for boys. Girls generally don't have school on Sundays.

My sisters generally yeshivish girls school had secular studies on Friday, but no school sunday.

[Yonah]

He said it in reverse, but 180 minutes a week can be split up to 45 minutes a day.
What I don't see is if 180 minutes/week works for Jewish school schedule, maybe with our holidays it comes out to fewer days and therefore more hours per day?

The number of total days in NY needs to match the state minimum of 180 days per school year. This, in part is why we wind up with busing nightmares of things like Columbus Day, Veterans Day, etc. 

Interestingly enough, most public school systems have a vacation give back schedule - i.e. if there are a lot of snow days, they chop off vacation days from winter or spring break. I've never seen a Yeshiva do it, although it would be pretty hard to end pesach early

[Yonah]

I think Yeshivas in the US fall into 3 basic formats:

- Modern Style day schools - (regardless of whether they're separate or co-ed) that intersperse Judaic and Secular studies throughout the day. So if there are two classes per grade, one class starts the day with Judaics, the other would start the day with Secular and then they switch midway through the day. There are many variations on this theme, but for the most part both secular and judaics teachers/rebbiem are full-time staff of the school. (for clarity, everyone starts the day with tefila, and then splits off). School is M-F, and Judaics and Secular are taught 5 days a week - even though Friday is a shorter day (9-1:30 vs 9-4:00)

- Yeshivish with serious secular studies - the morning hours are devoted to Judaic studies (9-1 or 2), and secular studies are taught in the afternoon. (2-4:30, 3-5:30) - there is a practical reason for this. The school hires secular studies teachers who teach in public or other private schools in the morning, and are looking to make some extra $$. The teacher benefits because they have a side job, the school benefits because they get qualified teachers at a lower cost. In this environment Judaics are taught either 5 or 6 days a week, and secular M-F (Sundays typically had a full judaics schedule, vs Fridays that had an abridged schedule)

- Chasidish/yeshivish without serious secular studies - I don't know much about the breakdown or how this is approached, but I do know that a lot of my friends who switched from those environments did so because the secular education wasn't taught seriously.

[shaulyaakov]

I think Yeshivas in the US fall into 3 basic formats:

- Modern Style day schools - (regardless of whether they're separate or co-ed) that intersperse Judaic and Secular studies throughout the day. So if there are two classes per grade, one class starts the day with Judaics, the other would start the day with Secular and then they switch midway through the day. There are many variations on this theme, but for the most part both secular and judaics teachers/rebbiem are full-time staff of the school. (for clarity, everyone starts the day with tefila, and then splits off). School is M-F, and Judaics and Secular are taught 5 days a week - even though Friday is a shorter day (9-1:30 vs 9-4:00)

- Yeshivish with serious secular studies - the morning hours are devoted to Judaic studies (9-1 or 2), and secular studies are taught in the afternoon. (2-4:30, 3-5:30) - there is a practical reason for this. The school hires secular studies teachers who teach in public or other private schools in the morning, and are looking to make some extra $$. The teacher benefits because they have a side job, the school benefits because they get qualified teachers at a lower cost. In this environment Judaics are taught either 5 or 6 days a week, and secular M-F (Sundays typically had a full judaics schedule, vs Fridays that had an abridged schedule)

- Chasidish/yeshivish without serious secular studies - I don't know much about the breakdown or how this is approached, but I do know that a lot of my friends who switched from those environments did so because the secular education wasn't taught seriously.

I agree. The laws are targeting group 3, but group 2 are being caught in the crosshairs. If group 3 didn't exist, nobody would care about the slighly lower standards in group 2.

Group 1 essentially meets the standard when counting Hebrew language as a secular studies.

[shapsam]

I agree. The laws are targeting group 3, but group 2 are being caught in the crosshairs. If group 3 didn't exist, nobody would care about the slighly lower standards in group 2.

Group 1 essentially meets the standard when counting Hebrew language as a secular studies.

This is not true. All groups are apposed to it including the Christian and Muslim schools.

[Yonah]

I agree. The laws are targeting group 3, but group 2 are being caught in the crosshairs. If group 3 didn't exist, nobody would care about the slighly lower standards in group 2.

Group 1 essentially meets the standard when counting Hebrew language as a secular studies.

Based on my comments regarding the actual policy document, it would seem that group 2 would also qualify - albeit with a little creative accounting - i.e. Chumash qualifies towards history, and Gemara to Social Studies, and both qualify for foreign language.  Again - this is if the total is 12-15 hours per week as opposed to 20-25 hours per week. If it's 20-25 hours per week, even those in group 1 would have difficulty meeting the requirement.

This is not true. All groups are apposed to it including the Christian and Muslim schools.

A lot of independent schools are opposed to it, in part because its more quantitative than qualitative. It also puts the burden on the schools to do more time accounting in case they're subject to an audit. While it might be easy to see how any religious school would be opposed to time limitations, other schools that are not religious oppose it too - some of them have alternative methods of teaching or subjects other than the standard curriculum don't want the government interfering with their curricula either.

I imagine most schools would agree to a qualitative measure of their teaching (i.e. this % of students are required to pass statewide subject exams) vs. you must teach x number of hours of this subject per week. In the qualitative measures, those numbers should be driven by the public schools in their same district. Back in the days where everyone in NY was required to take regents, I'm sure that most Yeshivas had far higher averages than the overall Public School average (even if you throw out the cheaters).