Author Topic: israeli aviation law  (Read 4229 times)

Offline bmw

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israeli aviation law
« on: July 16, 2019, 04:13:36 PM »
i was on ua 85 on june 25 which was cancelled due to technical reasons, in response to my request for compensation as per israeli law united replied

I'm sorry to learn of the disruption in your travel plans and the inconvenience you and your family experienced. Prior to take-off, a mechanical issue beyond our control impacted the operation of the aircraft for your flight.  Although schedule reliability is a primary goal, we know you understand that the safety of our passengers and crew is our first priority. compensation under the Israeli Air Services Law is not applicable in this case, we certainly recognize that your travel plans were adversely affected.
We appreciate your understanding and look forward to welcoming you and your family on board a future United flight.
Kind regards,

i believe this is not correct, does anyone have any experience with this, any idea what action to take, or was on the same flight and got a different response ?

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2019, 04:20:56 PM »
I don't believe mechanical problems are an exemption under Israeli law. There are solutions to that (though they might be costly) other than flight cancellation.

You should probably quote the law and warn them that if your compensation will not be paid on time, they will be faced with paying legal fees too, as you will sue them in Israeli courts.

The letter of the law (in Hebrew):

Quote
(ה)  בלי לגרוע מהוראות סעיף קטן (ג), נוסע שטיסתו בוטלה לא יהיה זכאי לפיצוי כספי כאמור בתוספת הראשונה, אם מפעיל הטיסה או המארגן הוכיח כי התקיים אחד מאלה:

(1)   הטיסה בוטלה בשל נסיבות מיוחדות שלא היו בשליטתו, וגם אם היה עושה כל אשר ביכולתו – לא היה יכול למנוע את ביטולה בשל אותן נסיבות;

(2)   הטיסה בוטלה בשל שביתה או השבתה מוגנות;

(3)   הטיסה בוטלה כדי להימנע מחילול שבת או חג.

Despite what United claims on their website that they get a pass if:

Quote
In addition, you may not be entitled to compensation if your flight
was cancelled because of special circumstances which were not under
our control, and the cancellation could not have been prevented even
if we would have taken all reasonable measures possible to avoid the
delay, or a labor strike

That is actually NOT the letter of the law. The law doesn't make any provision for "reasonable measures" (which is a subjective bar, and if it were up to judge Kavanaugh, it would be struck down as no law), but rather exempts the airline only if it wouldn't have been able to avoid the cancellation under any circumstances (which IMHO would only mean if there's no way to get any aircraft flying out of the airport, as airlines can use other aircraft, conduct more thorough or frequent maintenance, etc. etc.) In any event, the burden of proof is definitely on them.

https://www.elal.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/About-ELAL/Passengers-Rights/ISRAEL_AviationServicesLawENG.pdf (page 11, section 6 (e)).

Quote
(e) Without derogating from the provisions of Sub Section (c), a
passenger whose flight has been canceled will not be entitled to
monetary compensation as stated in the First Schedule, if the
Flight Operator or Organizer has proven that one of the following
prevails:
(1) the flight has been canceled due to special
circumstances which were not under its control, and even if
It would have done whatever was under its control - it could
not have prevented the cancelation due to those
circumstances;

« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 05:01:41 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline yandmk

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2019, 04:23:18 PM »
i was on ua 85 on june 25 which was cancelled due to technical reasons, in response to my request for compensation as per israeli law united replied

I'm sorry to learn of the disruption in your travel plans and the inconvenience you and your family experienced. Prior to take-off, a mechanical issue beyond our control impacted the operation of the aircraft for your flight.  Although schedule reliability is a primary goal, we know you understand that the safety of our passengers and crew is our first priority. compensation under the Israeli Air Services Law is not applicable in this case, we certainly recognize that your travel plans were adversely affected.
We appreciate your understanding and look forward to welcoming you and your family on board a future United flight.
Kind regards,

i believe this is not correct, does anyone have any experience with this, any idea what action to take, or was on the same flight and got a different response ?
IINM, mechanical delays is from the few thing that actually DO require them to compensate. If not mechanical and not weather, what would hold them responsible? The pilot oversleeping at his hotel...?

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2019, 04:40:32 PM »
My suggestion is to contact them again and politely say that you've checked the law, and they ARE required to compensate you within 45 days (you are required to notify them in writing IINM), and just ask how they are going to pay you.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline bmw

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2019, 06:28:37 PM »
thank you, done that will see what happens

Offline KSMH

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2019, 06:38:15 PM »
IMHO Threatening with legal action will prompt auto legal Dept. involvement. Their lawyers are smart and might just feel like you'll never sue them so they just throw you under.

The best option is to clearly state the and demonstrate they are responsible to pay and the burden of proof is on them. The previous comment clearly states the law and its details. If they insist, then ask them why they are looking to ESCLATE the matter.
Always praying for delayed baggage.

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2019, 07:01:09 PM »
IMHO Threatening with legal action will prompt auto legal Dept. involvement. Their lawyers are smart and might just feel like you'll never sue them so they just throw you under.

The best option is to clearly state the and demonstrate they are responsible to pay and the burden of proof is on them. The previous comment clearly states the law and its details. If they insist, then ask them why they are looking to ESCLATE the matter.

Paying mandatory compensation is cheaper than involving lawyers and going to court. Their legal department probably saw the Israeli law more than once, and realize that the legal burden of proof to exempt them from paying is on the airline. Unless there's unequivocal proof that given a different fully functional aircraft and crew, the flight still wouldn't be able to take off, I would guess any lawyer would advise them to avoid a legal battle.

My second suggestion indeed did not involve any threats of legal action, but I don't think mentioning legal action would put anyone at a disadvantage.

In Israel the method they employed is called שיטת מצליח. Meaning they will make an argument, hoping they are successful (מצליח) in deflecting the other party, and that the other party doesn't wake up before the statute of limitations runs out. If it failed, they'll just resort to doing what they're required to do by law.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 07:21:50 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2019, 07:27:50 PM »
It's incredible how the regulators around the world are OK with the total disregard to comp laws.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2019, 07:29:17 PM »
It's incredible how the regulators around the world are OK with the total disregard to comp laws.

I find it much more incredible that in the US the airlines can get away with whatever they feel won't damage their PR too much to hurt their business.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2019, 07:51:43 PM »
The US is much more libertarian. How European nanny states are tolerating this is the big question
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2019, 08:04:56 PM »
The US is much more libertarian. How European nanny states are tolerating this is the big question

What does liberaterian have to do with it? A person taking a Taxi ride in NYC has more rights and protections someone purchasing an airline ticket in the US.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2019, 08:51:38 PM »
What does liberaterian have to do with it? A person taking a Taxi ride in NYC has more rights and protections someone purchasing an airline ticket in the US.
Why should the government be involved in this transaction? If I go to my Dr and he runs 30 minutes late, nobody would say that the health department can order him to compensate me.

Obviously to the extent that the laws are on the books, I want to take full advantage, but I don't see why airlines should be penalized so much.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 10:45:47 PM by shaulyaakov »

Offline KSMH

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2019, 08:52:58 PM »
Paying mandatory compensation is cheaper than involving lawyers and going to court. Their legal department probably saw the Israeli law more than once, and realize that the legal burden of proof to exempt them from paying is on the airline. Unless there's unequivocal proof that given a different fully functional aircraft and crew, the flight still wouldn't be able to take off, I would guess any lawyer would advise them to avoid a legal battle.

My second suggestion indeed did not involve any threats of legal action, but I don't think mentioning legal action would put anyone at a disadvantage.

In Israel the method they employed is called שיטת מצליח. Meaning they will make an argument, hoping they are successful (מצליח) in deflecting the other party, and that the other party doesn't wake up before the statute of limitations runs out. If it failed, they'll just resort to doing what they're required to do by law.
Totally agree,  its cheaper to pay then to go to court, but lawyers invoke a different strategy some times and that is: how likely is is that you'll actually go to court, are you a US citizen, what class have you flown and other information they can pull up with a simple click by paying some research company a subscription fee. If a lawyer were to look at any case and find that reasonably you wont sue them,  they wont pay you. They would also consider the fact that in court they might win. Was a mechanical failure ever litigated, if it requires compensation? What type of mechanical issue is considered beyond their control. How many more passengers compensation can they possibly avoid paying by litigating? This and way more will determine if they want to pay you.

There for, don't use all cards at once. Try at first with the same rep with explanation. Then try with a supervisor and so on.
Always praying for delayed baggage.

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2019, 10:42:26 PM »
United are very tough when it comes to Israeli aviation law.
They deny claims for absurd reasons.
They probably figure that most people won't take them to court even if it is small claims court.

It won't get better unless they are slapped with a big class action or are hit with a huge fine.

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2019, 01:01:02 AM »
i was on ua 85 on june 25 which was cancelled due to technical reasons, in response to my request for compensation as per israeli law united replied

I'm sorry to learn of the disruption in your travel plans and the inconvenience you and your family experienced. Prior to take-off, a mechanical issue beyond our control impacted the operation of the aircraft for your flight.  Although schedule reliability is a primary goal, we know you understand that the safety of our passengers and crew is our first priority. compensation under the Israeli Air Services Law is not applicable in this case, we certainly recognize that your travel plans were adversely affected.
We appreciate your understanding and look forward to welcoming you and your family on board a future United flight.
Kind regards,

i believe this is not correct, does anyone have any experience with this, any idea what action to take, or was on the same flight and got a different response ?
Regarding flight compensation see here (and the cancellation from a week prior is well discussed here) https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13574.msg2113139#msg2113139

Offline chff

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2019, 01:02:59 AM »


United are very tough when it comes to Israeli aviation law.
They deny claims for absurd reasons.
They probably figure that most people won't take them to court even if it is small claims court.

It won't get better unless they are slapped with a big class action or are hit with a huge fine.

The Israeli law is missing a key component, a government body to enforce the law (not that it's any better in the EU)
https://youtu.be/jZ6wojobIq4

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2019, 01:21:56 AM »

The Israeli law is missing a key component, a government body to enforce the law (not that it's any better in the EU)
https://youtu.be/jZ6wojobIq4

That video is irrelevant. It's about bad customer service. There's no law that mandates good customer service. As far as mandated compensation, I believe Israeli courts have been effective in getting the airlines to comply. The problems with the Israeli culture are the preference to make noise, rather than politely go through the process mandated by the law on one hand, and שיטת מצליח on the other.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 02:44:39 AM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2019, 10:30:55 AM »
That video is irrelevant. It's about bad customer service. There's no law that mandates good customer service. As far as mandated compensation, I believe Israeli courts have been effective in getting the airlines to comply. The problems with the Israeli culture are the preference to make noise, rather than politely go through the process mandated by the law on one hand, and שיטת מצליח on the other.

To me this segment is about not being able to claim compensation and there is no governing body to complain to. in the EU each airline has to list a place to make an EU claim (some airlines like DY make it difficult etc) and there is a governing body to complain to (which is worthless anyways)

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2019, 10:45:03 AM »
To me this segment is about not being able to claim compensation and there is no governing body to complain to. in the EU each airline has to list a place to make an EU claim (some airlines like DY make it difficult etc) and there is a governing body to complain to (which is worthless anyways)
DoT had more teeth than their Israeli or European counterparts but overall, consumers are really only required to be compensated for being bumped.

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Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2019, 06:23:37 PM »
their next reply

We have again reviewed your request for cash compensation and found that we complied with all the applicable regulations at the time of your flight.

 

I understand that the cancellation was, at best, very frustrating and truly regret you were disappointed.  Please let me explain why cash compensation is not applicable under the Israeli Air Passenger Law.  Because all routine preventative maintenance actions were performed on the aircraft as scheduled, and the cancellation could not have been reasonably predicted or avoided, the event is considered force majeure and exclusionary to the mandatory compensation rules.

 

Please know that our legal department carefully reviews each of these matters with our system and technical operations groups to ensure we are in full compliance with the appropriate legal standards.  Although the cause of the irregularity was extraordinary and unable to be avoided, we did what we could to minimize it, and have nothing further to advise at this point.