Author Topic: israeli aviation law  (Read 4272 times)

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17686
  • Total likes: 7942
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2019, 06:51:12 PM »
their next reply

We have again reviewed your request for cash compensation and found that we complied with all the applicable regulations at the time of your flight.

 

I understand that the cancellation was, at best, very frustrating and truly regret you were disappointed.  Please let me explain why cash compensation is not applicable under the Israeli Air Passenger Law.  Because all routine preventative maintenance actions were performed on the aircraft as scheduled, and the cancellation could not have been reasonably predicted or avoided, the event is considered force majeure and exclusionary to the mandatory compensation rules.

 

Please know that our legal department carefully reviews each of these matters with our system and technical operations groups to ensure we are in full compliance with the appropriate legal standards.  Although the cause of the irregularity was extraordinary and unable to be avoided, we did what we could to minimize it, and have nothing further to advise at this point.

Here's what I would do:

Download the English Version of the law from ELAL'S website (which I linked to above) and attach it to your email.

Point out to the that the language of the law DOES NOT make an exception based on a statement that "all routine preventative maintenance actions were performed on the aircraft as scheduled" and places the burden of proof on the airline to show that "(1) the flight has been canceled due to special
circumstances which were not under its control, and even if It would have done whatever was under its control - it could not have prevented the cancelation due to those circumstances;" and does not put any limitations on the term whatever to limit it to solely scheduled maintenance (which is at this point only alleged by the airline and not proved).

Based on that, you expect payment to be made within the time frame provided by the law.

What do others think?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline bmw

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2015
  • Posts: 762
  • Total likes: 85
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 9
    • View Profile
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2019, 09:33:32 PM »
i wrote that on my first reply, the last course of action will be the israeli small claims court [my brother is the plaintiff and lives in israel so not a problem to go down there]. there is also a website which helps out with filing claims

https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-new-site-helps-israelis-file-small-claims-suits-1001065794

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17686
  • Total likes: 7942
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2019, 10:41:24 PM »
http://ktanot.co.il/?p=1507

Seems like the courts agree that mechanical failure isn't an exemption.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17686
  • Total likes: 7942
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2019, 10:50:22 PM »
http://www.takdin.co.il/searchg/חברת%20US%20AIRWAYS%20GROUP.%20INC.html

Even without purchasing documents, the excerpts that show up as part of the search show that the courts have ruled that mechanical failure DOES NOT qualify as Force Majeure, and had the legislator intended an exclusion for mechanical failure, it would have enumerated it in the text of the law.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17686
  • Total likes: 7942
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline KSMH

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2018
  • Posts: 2812
  • Total likes: 496
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
    • View Profile
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2019, 11:28:15 PM »
Did not read all case law above.

I would make one last argument before heading to court.

1. Provide examples why routine maintenance does not qualify as an exemption. [As per above comments]
2. Explain that escalating the manner can incur additional costs.
3. Rewrite your claim on entirely so whom ever is reviewing it will see it all at once.

Always praying for delayed baggage.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17686
  • Total likes: 7942
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2019, 11:34:48 PM »
2. Explain that escalating the manner can incur additional costs.

I was actually contemplating the details of such. Just imagine the cost to get witnesses to the Israeli court....

Even according to UAs position, the burden of proof in claiming Force Majeure is on the party raising such claim.

In any event, I would wait until after the time alloted for payment has expired (45 days IINM) before heading to court.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 11:38:51 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17686
  • Total likes: 7942
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2019, 10:35:12 PM »
i was on ua 85 on june 25 which was cancelled due to technical reasons, in response to my request for compensation as per israeli law united replied

I'm sorry to learn of the disruption in your travel plans and the inconvenience you and your family experienced. Prior to take-off, a mechanical issue beyond our control impacted the operation of the aircraft for your flight.  Although schedule reliability is a primary goal, we know you understand that the safety of our passengers and crew is our first priority. compensation under the Israeli Air Services Law is not applicable in this case, we certainly recognize that your travel plans were adversely affected.
We appreciate your understanding and look forward to welcoming you and your family on board a future United flight.
Kind regards,

i believe this is not correct, does anyone have any experience with this, any idea what action to take, or was on the same flight and got a different response ?
What ended up happening?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ad120

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 2536
  • Total likes: 105
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Monsey, NY
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2019, 10:56:44 PM »
i was on ua 85 on june 25 which was cancelled due to technical reasons, in response to my request for compensation as per israeli law united replied

I'm sorry to learn of the disruption in your travel plans and the inconvenience you and your family experienced. Prior to take-off, a mechanical issue beyond our control impacted the operation of the aircraft for your flight.  Although schedule reliability is a primary goal, we know you understand that the safety of our passengers and crew is our first priority. compensation under the Israeli Air Services Law is not applicable in this case, we certainly recognize that your travel plans were adversely affected.
We appreciate your understanding and look forward to welcoming you and your family on board a future United flight.
Kind regards,

i believe this is not correct, does anyone have any experience with this, any idea what action to take, or was on the same flight and got a different response ?
You need to get maintenance records. You can then argue that the checks and maintenance procedure wasn't thorough enough and thereby making it "within their control".

Offline shaulyaakov

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 2794
  • Total likes: 326
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2019, 11:00:33 PM »
You need to get maintenance records. You can then argue that the checks and maintenance procedure wasn't thorough enough and thereby making it "within their control".
Is it even possible to get those without a subpoena?

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17686
  • Total likes: 7942
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2019, 11:34:26 PM »
You need to get maintenance records. You can then argue that the checks and maintenance procedure wasn't thorough enough and thereby making it "within their control".

I believe the burden of proof is on the airline, not on the claimant.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ah giten

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Posts: 1992
  • Total likes: 393
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2019, 12:48:29 PM »
I have a passenger with UA flight 90 on OCT 23, departed 7:54 am OCT 24. (~9 hours late).
They said due to technical reasons.

Israeli aviation law, should cover this, but as op, UA will prob claim "xtraordinary circumstances".
should I try myself, or should take an Israeli lawyer?

Offline shaulyaakov

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 2794
  • Total likes: 326
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2019, 12:50:41 PM »
I have a passenger with UA flight 90 on OCT 23, departed 7:54 am OCT 24. (~9 hours late).
They said due to technical reasons.

Israeli aviation law, should cover this, but as op, UA will prob claim "xtraordinary circumstances".
should I try myself, or should take an Israeli lawyer?
Put the claim in and see.

Offline ah giten

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Posts: 1992
  • Total likes: 393
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2019, 12:55:05 PM »
Put the claim in and see.
correct. nothing to lose.
but I was asking bcuz as mentioned above, they're for some reason not afraid of Israeli law, so question really is if anyone know different?

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17686
  • Total likes: 7942
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2019, 01:14:41 PM »
correct. nothing to lose.
but I was asking bcuz as mentioned above, they're for some reason not afraid of Israeli law, so question really is if anyone know different?

What does "not afraid of Israeli law" mean? Just file the claim and assert your rights under Israeli aviation law. You could mention that based on that law you are entitled to the maximum compensation (though I wouldn't be surprised if they might raise the fact that TLV doesn't allow takeoff between 1:00am (or thereabouts) and 5:00am which is beyond their control.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline shaulyaakov

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 2794
  • Total likes: 326
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2019, 01:23:37 PM »
correct. nothing to lose.
but I was asking bcuz as mentioned above, they're for some reason not afraid of Israeli law, so question really is if anyone know different?
In Israel the only way it's enforceable is through court - they know people aren't going to sue. Really someone needs to put together a class action.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17686
  • Total likes: 7942
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2019, 01:54:11 PM »
In Israel the only way it's enforceable is through court - they know people aren't going to sue. Really someone needs to put together a class action.

Why would people not sue? People regularly sue, and there are law firms that specialize in it.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline shaulyaakov

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 2794
  • Total likes: 326
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2019, 01:56:20 PM »
Why would people not sue? People regularly sue, and there are law firms that specialize in it.
Out of a plane full of united flyers, how many do you think know or care enough to sue? I'm guessing it's below 10%.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17686
  • Total likes: 7942
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: israeli aviation law
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2019, 02:00:36 PM »
Out of a plane full of united flyers, how many do you think know or care enough to sue? I'm guessing it's below 10%.

Possible. So educate them.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan