Author Topic: Headlines R Shach & The Rebbe  (Read 1274 times)

Offline Eliyohu

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Offline Definitions

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Re: Headlines R Shach & The Rebbe
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2019, 06:00:46 PM »
I haven't listened to it yet. But has anyone tried this popcorn


It's much better.
Jack of all trades, master of none.

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Re: Headlines R Shach & The Rebbe
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2019, 06:34:13 PM »
https://www.podbean.com/eu/pb-emyd4-ba0bba



The main issue is that the the 2 "opposing" viewpoints that he interviews are not at all asked about the same thing... So it's just 2   1-sided discussions on 2 completely separate people/subjects.

Offline Eliyohu

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Re: Headlines R Shach & The Rebbe
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2019, 12:12:16 AM »
https://www.podbean.com/eu/pb-emyd4-ba0bba



The main issue is that the the 2 "opposing" viewpoints that he interviews are not at all asked about the same thing... So it's just 2   1-sided discussions on 2 completely separate people/subjects.
I was planning on writing a bit of a preface but didn't have a chance...

Please don't jump on me, this is a very basic idea of what was discussed, based on memory... And prob influenced by my preconceived notions and what was going thru my head while listening to it...

I don't know the acceptance of either of the 2 people, in people's views and credentials to speak about the topic..

 R Lederman of the "R Shach world" although his credentials sound good, I would imagine that it would be quite difficult for to find someone who was really involved & close to R Shach that would go on record...

R Dolfin, he sounds like he a researcher/historian, according to his own claims will only say what he has clear proof, but then again being a Lubavitcher I'm sure is somewhat biased.8

In regards to the interviews, R Lederman is discussing R Shach issues with the Rebbas ideology
A) R Shach was afraid that the Messianic attitude, fostered an idea of imortality, and although the Messianic attitude wasn't something to be concerned about, as it was prevalent in other chassidus etc. However the imortality attitude would cause people to leave Judaism when the Rebba were to die.
(It would seem the elohist movement, would possibly be in this category)
B) The Messianism gave the Rebba much clout with Israeli politicians and in a time that R Shach was working very hard to establish Degel Hatorah he felt the Rebba was stepping on his toes in his territory, and having "two captains" trying to deal with the government was very difficult, as well as he felt it lost him some seats in the government.
C) Regarding Kiruv, R Shach wanted cooperation with the Rebba to work together (he sent him a letter) ... He felt that being miurav with Frei yidden wasn't the way to do it.

He had a few minor points such as R Shach wasn't a fan of the PR & marketing that Lubavitch does etc...

And R Dolfin more discuss the Rayatz & R Aron which seems to center around sending money to Shanghai & the vaad HaYeshivas..

As usual Lichtenstein seems to be pushing a agenda in this being..

A) That's today the machlokes is pretty much moot, let's move on
(A quick recording from R Shmuel Kamentzky & ending with (a story)... that today we don't have the giants with us who can even have such a machlokes so for now let's be friends..)
B) Feeling very strongly that the machlokes was if Torah L'shma is something that we can say Ais Lasos...

Online ExGingi

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Re: Headlines R Shach & The Rebbe
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2019, 01:34:27 AM »
https://www.podbean.com/eu/pb-emyd4-ba0bba

I didn't listen to part 2 yet, but I actually think DL did a pretty decent job in challenging Lederman with facts (probably only where Lederman's claims didn't really need much ראיה לסתור, as it is obvious to anyone who isn't blind).

I took a few notes during that interview and might post comments later.

I will just point out one issue that presents Lederman's ignorance of the Rebbe's (and his predecessors) shita, leading to nonsensical conclusions.

The fact is that the Rebbe was totally opposed to JOINING or being AFFILIATED with a political movement. (though on a personal level people should participate in the elections and make their own judgment of who to vote for - whoever qualifies as מפלגה החרדית ביותר). I believe the reason for this is in order not to allow for a political affiliation to create a barrier between oneself and another Jew, hindering the possibility of having a positive influence on another Jew.

Therefore the claim that "if Chabad's influence is so great, how come it doesn't translate into seats in the Knesset" is probably the most ridiculous claim to make. The only exception the Rebbe made was when Degel was established over disagreement of the attitude of Agudas Yisroel to Chabad (IINM it was about permitting Chabad related publicity, possibly printing of a מכתב כללי, in Hamodia), where the Rebbe instructed AS A ONE TIME EXCEPTION that Chabad in Israel should go full force in supporting Agudas Yisroel - which led to an unprecedented (at the time) increase in Aguda's representation in the Knesset, despite having the Degel split away. It should be noted that right after the election the Rebbe spoke publicly and said that due to the tremendous outcome, differences should be put aside and all frum parties should get together and agree upon a few consensus topics that they should fight for in unison leveraging their increased power. IIRC one example given was Shabbos, and to the surprise of many in the crowd, there was no mention of "מיהו יהודי" - something that the Rebbe was fighting for years.

Not unnoticed was the ignorant sinas chinam (was that CBC talking there) spewed at 4:57 and regurgitated with an extra measure at 6:21.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 02:14:14 AM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Headlines R Shach & The Rebbe
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2019, 01:40:41 AM »
If anyone has the book https://www.artscroll.com/Books/9781422623305.html mentioned in the interview stating that R Shach requested cooperation from the Rebbe, kindly post an image of the quote from the book.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Headlines R Shach & The Rebbe
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2019, 07:46:57 AM »
sinas chinam (was that ___ talking there)
ummmm
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Headlines R Shach & The Rebbe
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2019, 08:00:13 AM »
And away. We. Go.
Quote from: ExGingi
[Stating things eloquently] seems to be Yehuda57's job around here :)

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Headlines R Shach & The Rebbe
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2019, 10:25:52 AM »
If anyone has the book https://www.artscroll.com/Books/9781422623305.html mentioned in the interview stating that R Shach requested cooperation from the Rebbe, kindly post an image of the quote from the book.

It's page 221-226 for anyone looking. (I'm in a seforim store, so I'm not going to start taking pictures...)

Offline Eliyohu

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Re: Headlines R Shach & The Rebbe
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2019, 12:17:48 AM »
.

Offline Eliyohu

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Re: Headlines R Shach & The Rebbe
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2019, 12:18:30 AM »
.

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Re: Headlines R Shach & The Rebbe
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2019, 01:33:43 PM »
Thanks @Eliyohu for uploading. Fascinating story.

Online ExGingi

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Re: Headlines R Shach & The Rebbe
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2019, 02:42:28 PM »
@chbochur Any way you can find a link to the video of this encounter?

I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Headlines R Shach & The Rebbe
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2019, 05:13:29 PM »
@chbochur Any way you can find a link to the video of this encounter?



I imagine that will be hard, because there aren't much details that can pin down a date, and many of the details that are there are clearly not accurate

Online ExGingi

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Re: Headlines R Shach & The Rebbe
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2019, 05:58:56 PM »
I imagine that will be hard, because there aren't much details that can pin down a date, and many of the details that are there are clearly not accurate

I'll ask YC from TWS next time I speak to him. He told me that he has an index of sorts of all the פנינים videos.

I am not willing to make any judgment on the accuracy of any details until I see the video.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan