Author Topic: Why I donít live in Israel yet  (Read 4072 times)

Offline hvaces42

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Offline AussieMan

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Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2019, 03:33:28 PM »
That's interesting. I've never seen it. Can you please post sources/quotes?
רמב"ן
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IIRC it was r' moshe who said its a mitzvah קיומית, which is basically the same idea as mitzvah but not chiyuv.

in @Dan article
The Rebbe: Any chassid who comes to ask about going to live in Israel, who isn't involved in education or in the rabbinate, is advised to go, and we give him our blessing for his move. The problem is for those who have vital roles in the community, and if they leave, everything will crumble. They are compared to ships' captains in stormy seas; the captain is always the last to abandon ship. First, he must save the passengers . . .

This is why Chabad never made it a thing to move. But if one isn't on shlichus, it's more a matter of culture than anything else.

And regarding visiting, which most people I know do without a question -
The Rebbe: If you would write to me a halachic responsa that according to Jewish law, I would be permitted to afterward return to the United States, not to abandon the Jews here, then I would evaluate the validity of the argument to see if it is indeed a proper conclusion according to Jewish law.

Online ExGingi

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Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2019, 03:38:29 PM »
http://www.englishtorahtapes.com/listen/Parshas/030A_Kedoshim_Rabbi_Isaac_Bernstein_5754%20-%2002%20-%20Track%20%202.mp3

Start at 13:30

Didn't listen through yet. But just hearing a few words I hear that the speaker seems to be a believer in Zionism which IINM does make such claims, though I am unfamiliar with what sources they have to back it up, and I hear he mentions Teichtel, who is famous for his opinions.

We've just learned מצוות עשה in the daily Rambam yesterday. I don't recall seeing any such Mitzvah. Nor do I recall noticing such a Mitzvah when saying תריג מצוות at the end of תיקון ליל שבועות.

Can anyone bring a quote and reference from מוני המצוות listing such a Mitzvah?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline AussieMan

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Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2019, 03:47:58 PM »
Didn't listen through yet. But just hearing a few words I hear that the speaker seems to be a believer in Zionism which IINM does make such claims, though I am unfamiliar with what sources they have to back it up, and I hear he mentions Teichtel, who is famous for his opinions.

We've just learned מצוות עשה in the daily Rambam yesterday. I don't recall seeing any such Mitzvah. Nor do I recall noticing such a Mitzvah when saying תריג מצוות at the end of תיקון ליל שבועות.

Can anyone bring a quote and reference from מוני המצוות listing such a Mitzvah?
The Ramban does count it.
All the meforshim ask why the rambam doesn't. The meggilas esther learns that the rambam held it's not a mitzvah. Most other meforshim give reasons why the rambam didn't count it, (mitzvah coileles or included in other mitzvos etc)

https://www.ou.org/torah/halacha/practical-halacha/the-mitzvah-of-making-aliyah-living-in-israel-today/
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 03:51:02 PM by AussieMan »

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
« Reply #64 on: August 08, 2019, 03:52:35 PM »
Didn't listen through yet. But just hearing a few words I hear that the speaker seems to be a believer in Zionism which IINM does make such claims, though I am unfamiliar with what sources they have to back it up, and I hear he mentions Teichtel, who is famous for his opinions.

We've just learned מצוות עשה in the daily Rambam yesterday. I don't recall seeing any such Mitzvah. Nor do I recall noticing such a Mitzvah when saying תריג מצוות at the end of תיקון ליל שבועות.

Can anyone bring a quote and reference from מוני המצוות listing such a Mitzvah?
I didnt post in response to anything other than the topic.

The Speaker is Rav Isaac Bernstein z'l who was a Rov in Ireland and England and passed away in the 1990s. What his personal beliefs were I cannot say.

This is Audio only (not great quality) from Rav Berel Wein (yes we know someone in this thread hates him) of the Haftorah of Parshas Parah


Worth a listen too about how everything the Navi Yechezkel said would happen.
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Offline chinagel

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Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
« Reply #65 on: August 08, 2019, 03:58:14 PM »
Not according to most poskim. This is all very well explained in מאמר מצות ישוב ארץ ישראל in ויואל משה.
Nice of you to quote the Satmar Rav as "most Poskim" ::)
#FakeNewsAlert
Not sure which part is FakeNews. I'll assume you aren't arguing that throughout Galus, Gedolim didn't encourage moving to E"Y.
As far as most Poskim
רמב"ן
אבני נזר ועוד בדעת הרמב"ם
IIRC it was r' moshe who said its a mitzvah קיומית, which is basically the same idea as mitzvah but not chiyuv.
Shiltei hagiborim in Nedarim says it's only a mitzva al mnas leisheiv. Chazon Ish was known and R' Chaim Kanievsky is known to strongly encourage.

Offline AussieMan

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Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
« Reply #66 on: August 08, 2019, 04:12:48 PM »
@chinagel I'm on your side here.
I think you should be quoting @ExGingi

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Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
« Reply #67 on: August 08, 2019, 04:27:28 PM »

It was actually not a rash decision .  We went to Israel for 4-6 weeks every summer for eight years to acclimate and go with our eyes wide open.  I think the thing that finally pushed us to go was our desire not to have our family split in two countries as some of the kids would soon be of the age that their situation may keep them in the U.S., spouse etc.  Our  family was too close for the family to be split.  All The kids were also gung ho for the move which is crucial in the success.

Spending eight years prepping is certainly the right way to do it. Most of those on this forum likely have never taken the family for an extended trip to Israel and couldnít afford it if they wanted to. Asking them to take the plunge is a whole different story.


Offline chinagel

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Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2019, 05:01:18 PM »
@chinagel I'm on your side here.
I think you should be quoting @ExGingi
I was guoting you to bring proof to what I said :)
Also, Chazon Ish in koveitz igros 1:175 says "mitzvas E"y huchra al y'dei harambam v'haramban u'sharei poskim @YesThatsMe

Offline Kabrams1618

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Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2019, 05:01:38 PM »
Although the halachic discussion on if it is required for Jews to live in Eretz Yisrael is interesting,  it misses the point of the original question.  Since no halachic authority  forbids Jews from making aliyah and since aliyah is open to all Jews, and since the majority of Jews (certainly the majority of Jewish births are in Israel the question is why you as an individual have decided, or not decided, to make the move. 
I will start.  I believe that Israel is the future of the Jewish people, and there is no future in the U.S. or Europe in the long term.  I believe we are in exciting times and our children are living and determining the future of the Jewish people.  I believe that you can only live and breath and develop the land given to the Jews by being here. I believe that it is important for Jews to be able defend a homeland of their own especially considering the historical track record of our welcome in the great Jewish galut communities.  You may not agree with me but that is why my family is here.
I am just wondering, with your free will choice, why YOU decided to stay in the galut or move to Israel.  I hope that clarifies the question for some.  The majority of U.S.Jews are  not coming, aliyah is minimal, I am just trying to get a feel for why.

Offline chinagel

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Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2019, 05:09:39 PM »
The majority of U.S.Jews are  not coming, aliyah is minimal, I am just trying to get a feel for why.
Why should we? :P

Online mmgfarb

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Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2019, 05:14:05 PM »
Although the halachic discussion on if it is required for Jews to live in Eretz Yisrael is interesting,  it misses the point of the original question.  Since no halachic authority  forbids Jews from making aliyah and since aliyah is open to all Jews, and since the majority of Jews (certainly the majority of Jewish births are in Israel the question is why you as an individual have decided, or not decided, to make the move. 
I will start.  I believe that Israel is the future of the Jewish people, and there is no future in the U.S. or Europe in the long term.  I believe we are in exciting times and our children are living and determining the future of the Jewish people.  I believe that you can only live and breath and develop the land given to the Jews by being here. I believe that it is important for Jews to be able defend a homeland of their own especially considering the historical track record of our welcome in the great Jewish galut communities.  You may not agree with me but that is why my family is here.
I am just wondering, with your free will choice, why YOU decided to stay in the galut or move to Israel.  I hope that clarifies the question for some.  The majority of U.S.Jews are  not coming, aliyah is minimal, I am just trying to get a feel for why.
You do realize that just because you live in Israel, you are still in galus, right? I'm not going to question your motives for moving to Israel but I don't think that there is any basis for saying that moving back to E"Y is going to help bring the geula any faster. You are free to CMIIW.
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Online Yard sale

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Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2019, 05:28:32 PM »
Although the halachic discussion on if it is required for Jews to live in Eretz Yisrael is interesting,  it misses the point of the original question.  Since no halachic authority  forbids Jews from making aliyah and since aliyah is open to all Jews, and since the majority of Jews (certainly the majority of Jewish births are in Israel the question is why you as an individual have decided, or not decided, to make the move. 
I will start.  I believe that Israel is the future of the Jewish people, and there is no future in the U.S. or Europe in the long term.  I believe we are in exciting times and our children are living and determining the future of the Jewish people.  I believe that you can only live and breath and develop the land given to the Jews by being here. I believe that it is important for Jews to be able defend a homeland of their own especially considering the historical track record of our welcome in the great Jewish galut communities.  You may not agree with me but that is why my family is here.
I am just wondering, with your free will choice, why YOU decided to stay in the galut or move to Israel.  I hope that clarifies the question for some.  The majority of U.S.Jews are  not coming, aliyah is minimal, I am just trying to get a feel for why.

There are many great reasons to want to live in Israel but just to address the specific points you raised, from a purely logical perspective the future of the Jewish people actually looks a lot more bleak in Israel than in the United States. You have an existential threat from the surrounding Arab countries, a virtual certainty of Iran and others developing nuclear weapons, and Hezbolla and the like stockpiling increasingly destructive and deadly weapons that are difficult if not impossible to completely counter.

Even from a spiritual perspective the navi describing what Yerushalayim will go through prior to moshiachís arrival is terrifying.

 I personally donít believe that having a Jewish homeland to defend in the ďnever againĒ sense is worth a whole lot when it is centered smack dab in middle of dozens of nations who wish to destroy us. Iím sure many others feel the same so those are not specific factors that would motivate mass Aliyah from the US.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 05:35:24 PM by Yard sale »

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Re: Why I donít live in Israel yet
« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2019, 02:12:25 AM »