Author Topic: Why I don’t live in Israel yet  (Read 4420 times)

Online Proisrael

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Re: Why I don’t live in Israel yet
« Reply #75 on: August 09, 2019, 02:15:35 AM »
Kids going off the D:

Seems to be limited to a RBS issue and not a general issue in Israel (any worse then certain neighborhoods in Lakewood/Monsey/deal/Brooklyn)

Hate to Charedim:

Seems to be very limited to Jerusalem. I live in Haifa and everyone I meet in the business world is very very interested and very nice.

Jobs:

Definitely is an issue, however someone in Tech/Real Estate/Teaching can definitely find jobs here. Israel has an amazing job market now.



Offline Yard sale

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Re: Why I don’t live in Israel yet
« Reply #76 on: August 09, 2019, 02:58:52 AM »
Kids going off the D:

Seems to be limited to a RBS issue and not a general issue in Israel (any worse then certain neighborhoods in Lakewood/Monsey/deal/Brooklyn)


You mean this?
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/1563665/sikrikim-vs-shabavnikim-jewish-delinquent-youth-are-terrorizing-the-streets-of-ramat-beit-shemesh.html

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Why I don’t live in Israel yet
« Reply #77 on: August 09, 2019, 03:28:58 AM »
Here is a comprehensive article that deals with a lot of the issues that come up when making Aliyah. It’s not that recent but should still be quite relevant.

http://www.rabbihorowitz.com/PYes/ArticleDetails.cfm?Book_ID=849&ThisGroup_ID=238&ID=Newest&Type=Article

“Rabbi Oratz estimates that between ten and twenty percent of children who make aliya in their teenage years end up going off the derech.”

“Rabbi Yaakov Hopfer of Congregation She’aris Yisroel in Baltimore is well aware of the challenges facing American families making aliya:“Thousands of people are struggling with these issues.Not hundreds – thousands! I would say that 50% of the kids who make aliya are getting married and settling back in America.”

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Re: Why I don’t live in Israel yet
« Reply #78 on: August 09, 2019, 04:18:14 AM »
Here is a comprehensive article that deals with a lot of the issues that come up when making Aliyah. It’s not that recent but should still be quite relevant.

http://www.rabbihorowitz.com/PYes/ArticleDetails.cfm?Book_ID=849&ThisGroup_ID=238&ID=Newest&Type=Article

“Rabbi Oratz estimates that between ten and twenty percent of children who make aliya in their teenage years end up going off the derech.”

“Rabbi Yaakov Hopfer of Congregation She’aris Yisroel in Baltimore is well aware of the challenges facing American families making aliya:“Thousands of people are struggling with these issues.Not hundreds – thousands! I would say that 50% of the kids who make aliya are getting married and settling back in America.”

This is a non-issue in many communities outside of RBS and JErusalem

Offline YesThatsMe

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Re: Why I don’t live in Israel yet
« Reply #79 on: August 09, 2019, 08:30:51 AM »
Kids going off the D:

Seems to be limited to a RBS issue and not a general issue in Israel (any worse then certain neighborhoods in Lakewood/Monsey/deal/Brooklyn)

Hate to Charedim:

Seems to be very limited to Jerusalem. I live in Haifa and everyone I meet in the business world is very very interested and very nice.

Jobs:

Definitely is an issue, however someone in Tech/Real Estate/Teaching can definitely find jobs here. Israel has an amazing job market now.


Hate limited to Jerusalem? Jerusalem is a Chareidi city! And There is no business in Jerusalem! It’s just a provincial middle eastern Souk town commerce-wise.


I’m talking about a Chareidi who wants to get a job in what the media calls מדינת תל אביב, a normal finance or high tech or legal or even RE job with an established company or firm paying starting ₪12,000 to someone with a Masters Degree in the field, the Chareidim don’t make it past the lobby...

Offline Yonah

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Re: Why I don’t live in Israel yet
« Reply #80 on: August 09, 2019, 09:22:19 AM »
.....  I believe that Israel is the future of the Jewish people, and there is no future in the U.S. or Europe in the long term.  I believe we are in exciting times and our children are living and determining the future of the Jewish people.  I believe that you can only live and breath and develop the land given to the Jews by being here.

On many levels, I'd agree with you, but at the same time, I see a Jewish community that's so tribal and divisive, I shudder to think that that's our future.

I believe that it is important for Jews to be able defend a homeland of their own especially considering the historical track record of our welcome in the great Jewish galut communities.  You may not agree with me but that is why my family is here.
I agree with you there, but clearly all Jews in E"Y don't.

The majority of U.S.Jews are  not coming, aliyah is minimal, I am just trying to get a feel for why.

I can't answer that question, but I definitely see a lot of aliyah among younger families. Someone like me with 3 teenagers and aging family that we care for it's difficult to move. But over this summer, 2 families (both with kids under 10) and a single man (recent college graduate) from my small community have made/are making aliyah.



Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Why I don’t live in Israel yet
« Reply #81 on: August 09, 2019, 09:30:13 AM »
you feel less safe there?
Of course. It is a country surrounded by enemies who attack all the time. What's the question?

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Why I don’t live in Israel yet
« Reply #82 on: August 09, 2019, 09:37:18 AM »
תמיד עיני ה' אלוקיך בה מרשית שנה ועד אחרית שנה
Quote from: ExGingi
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Why I don’t live in Israel yet
« Reply #83 on: August 09, 2019, 10:02:59 AM »
This is a non-issue in many communities outside of RBS and JErusalem
Uh, so where exactly should Americans making aliyah live?
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Why I don’t live in Israel yet
« Reply #84 on: August 11, 2019, 06:43:20 AM »
תמיד עיני ה' אלוקיך בה מרשית שנה ועד אחרית שנה
Should I quote the myriad of other pesukim that detail what happens to Jews who sin in the holy Land?

Online ExGingi

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Re: Why I don’t live in Israel yet
« Reply #85 on: August 11, 2019, 02:23:28 PM »
Its actually sad that you should ask this. Unless there is something about Chabad shitos that I am unaware of.

I find that extremely hard to believe.

Let's start with a visual (this is what I found online using Google)



Choosing where to live (as well as many other aspects of life) aren't about what feels best for me, but about what's required of me (and/or where I might have the most positive impact).

Is there anyone in today's day and age that can claim ignorance of the above being an integral part of the Chabad-Lubavitch shitta?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 04:55:28 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline 12HRS

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Re: Why I don’t live in Israel yet
« Reply #86 on: August 11, 2019, 02:54:58 PM »
I understand the reason to stay. But I also have a premise of EY being primary all things equal which you asked if that should be the starting ground. My response was unequivocally yes unless there is some shita I am unaware of.

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Re: Why I don’t live in Israel yet
« Reply #87 on: August 11, 2019, 04:42:35 PM »
I understand the reason to stay. But I also have a premise of EY being primary all things equal which you asked if that should be the starting ground. My response was unequivocally yes unless there is some shita I am unaware of.

Did I?

Here is what I wrote:

You are making it sound like everyone should naturally want to live there, and a reason for not doing so should be given. I would ask "why should or would I move there" first.

My point mainly being that when we ask questions of others, trying to find out their ideas or opinions, we shouldn't really do it with any preconceived assumptions, but rather ask straightforward question seeking explanation (or clarification). I wouldn't have written what I wrote had the OP ommited the word "yet" from the question.

But rather than directly answer (or wait for OP to respond) you proceeded with what looks like you were making assumptions (implied), projections (referencing Chabad, rather than questioning me), and value judgments ("sad").

Hence @aygart's comment

That there may be an answer to the question doesn't invalidate the question. If the reason is that it may be better for frumkeit then that can be countered by how there are ways that it is worse etc.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline 12HRS

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Re: Why I don’t live in Israel yet
« Reply #88 on: August 11, 2019, 10:03:23 PM »
Did I?

Here is what I wrote:

My point mainly being that when we ask questions of others, trying to find out their ideas or opinions, we shouldn't really do it with any preconceived assumptions, but rather ask straightforward question seeking explanation (or clarification). I wouldn't have written what I wrote had the OP ommited the word "yet" from the question.

But rather than directly answer (or wait for OP to respond) you proceeded with what looks like you were making assumptions (implied), projections (referencing Chabad, rather than questioning me), and value judgments ("sad").

Hence @aygart's comment


Now that I can respond on a full stomach  ;)


Should I assume your shitos are different the chabad shitos? I mean no disrespect just that I have never heard of anyone not having a baseline of EY is primary all things equal. Mentioning chabad was my way of saying I don't know all their shitos and would be ok with EY not being the baseline if that was the Shita. (which would also not make it sad). If however the baseline is Chutz Laretz is =/> to EY without a serious shita behind it that would be sad. One Shita I can think of would be something along the lines of "Hashem didn't bring us back yet" that would state that the baseline is not EY.

I have 0 issues with staying in chutz l'aretz for a myriad of reasons, however I am still of the belief that starting ground is EY all things equal. Responding that

If the reason is that it may be better for frumkeit then that can be countered by how there are ways that it is worse etc.

Only says to me there may be legitimate reasons to stay. Which is not my point.

A response of a map of Chabad houses all over the world only indicates that there is a major reason to stay in chutz l'aretz vs E"Y but it is surely possible without the reason (whatever it may be) that the baseline is E"Y.

I am hoping that my distinction between a baseline Shita and reasons one way or another is clear.

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