Author Topic: PC friday question of the day.  (Read 35311 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #450 on: November 17, 2019, 12:56:03 PM »
Mods, please remove “friday” from thread title.
DDF is Yom Shekulo Erev Shabbos.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline M218

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #451 on: November 17, 2019, 12:56:23 PM »
I get that so we are back to the original question. How do kids that never ran into the street learned not to do that?
Or you’re asking how are some kids more disciplined then others?
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Offline TimT

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Re: PC question of the day.
« Reply #452 on: November 17, 2019, 01:00:17 PM »

Offline M218

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #453 on: November 17, 2019, 01:03:56 PM »
I would rather lock in Thursday nights Yom Shekulo Leil Shishi
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Offline etech0

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #454 on: November 17, 2019, 02:04:51 PM »
DDF is Yom Shekulo Erev Shabbos.
Over here it's יום שכלו פריידעי.
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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #455 on: November 17, 2019, 02:06:13 PM »
Can we go back to the assumption that kids think rationally? What kind of asinine assumption is that? Anyone who has taken a basic psychology class will know that this is categorically untrue. Children build the ability to think over many years in multiple stages during different age ranges. Children under 6 definitely aren't able to think about abstract consequences of their actions, that's why you give them a clear and direct consequence for doing something, ie. a slap, time out, etc.
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Offline chevron

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #456 on: November 17, 2019, 02:43:09 PM »
Having observed chabad and my parents outward acceptance and open love and welcomeness to not yet frum people etc I couldn't accept the rigid strictness of Judaism of my upbringing.

My father, specifically believed that he who spares the rod doesn't love his son.

Tragic alas, being that king Solomon said a lot of things including "hakol hevel" it's all a waste.


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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #457 on: November 17, 2019, 02:47:39 PM »
I think the slap and discipline is a pavlovic type of shock therapy.

It's why a human being in general will pull back from fire and not touch it.. or the time my heater wasn't working and I put my finger in it and got such a zap etc

The problem is, it can have different reactions to different humans, my cat was never disciplined but instead became afraid of me.

My friend who tried throwing his kid in pool to teach him to swim, kid was scared of the pool for years.


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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #458 on: November 17, 2019, 06:51:13 PM »
Having observed chabad and my parents outward acceptance and open love and welcomeness to not yet frum people etc I couldn't accept the rigid strictness of Judaism of my upbringing.

My father, specifically believed that he who spares the rod doesn't love his son.

Tragic alas, being that king Solomon said a lot of things including "hakol hevel" it's all a waste.
This post is such a mess, I'm not even going to try.
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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #459 on: November 17, 2019, 06:56:23 PM »
I think the slap and discipline is a pavlovic type of shock therapy.

It's why a human being in general will pull back from fire and not touch it.. or the time my heater wasn't working and I put my finger in it and got such a zap etc

The problem is, it can have different reactions to different humans, my cat was never disciplined but instead became afraid of me.

My friend who tried throwing his kid in pool to teach him to swim, kid was scared of the pool for years.
You can't conflate what some idiot did to his kid with actual proper child-rearing, that's just stupid and short-sighted. And if you think that giving consequences to your kids just begets some sort of Pavlovian training to do or not do something then I think you're either an idiot or just haven't actually thought that through.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #460 on: November 17, 2019, 07:22:31 PM »
You can't conflate what some idiot did to his kid with actual proper child-rearing, that's just stupid and short-sighted. And if you think that giving consequences to your kids just begets some sort of Pavlovian training to do or not do something then I think you're either an idiot or just haven't actually thought that through.
Someone needs a chill pill.
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Offline beeweegee

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #461 on: November 17, 2019, 07:37:15 PM »
I think the slap and discipline is a pavlovic type of shock therapy.

It's why a human being in general will pull back from fire and not touch it.. or the time my heater wasn't working and I put my finger in it and got such a zap etc

The problem is, it can have different reactions to different humans, my cat was never disciplined but instead became afraid of me.

My friend who tried throwing his kid in pool to teach him to swim, kid was scared of the pool for years.
I haven't been following this thread, but I just want to point out that people pulling their hands away from fire has nothing to do with Pavlov (who is responsible for the "discovery" of classical conditioning), but rather B. F. Skinner and John Watson, who are associated with the development of operant conditioning - the idea that when specific consequences are associated with a particular voluntary action, it makes a person more or less likely to engage in that action again, depending on whether the consequence is pleasant or distressing (i.e., a reward or a punishment). Happy to explain further if you have any specific questions.

I'm also not at all sure what you are referring to as shock therapy, nor what its association is with Pavlov.

Source: I'm a college professor who teaches developmental psychology courses and behaviorism.

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #462 on: November 17, 2019, 07:41:31 PM »
Happy to explain further if you have any specific questions.
Since you offered.  :)
Is inflicting pain the proper way to stop a child from doing dangerous things (running across the street/touching a hot pot).
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Offline beeweegee

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #463 on: November 17, 2019, 08:05:30 PM »
Since you offered.  :)
Is inflicting pain the proper way to stop a child from doing dangerous things (running across the street/touching a hot pot).
Short answer - not really.  There will always be contextual variables that come into play that can potentially impact any given behavioral outcome (and there are also individual differences in the ways we respond to different forms of consequences), but as a general rule, no - research indicates that punishment isn't generally all that effective in minimizing unwanted behavior unless there are several specific criteria met.

It should be added that corporal punishment, while legal, has been found to be the best predictor of aggression in children, and has been linked to lower levels of moral internalization and decreased mental health, including adolescent depression and social anxiety. I know this goes beyond your question, but is worth mentioning for those who go beyond the slap on the wrist when running in the street...

Back to the idea of punishment (or in the case of your question, "inflicting pain"), lab studies conducted on rats, monkeys, and humans demonstrate that it is almost impossible for punishment to successfully reduce an undesired behavior in real life. The way for punishment to actually reduce an undesired behavior is when it is:
-highly intense
-consistently applied
-no delay between the behavior and the punishment
-there are no competing rewards for the same behavior

So if you are extremely consistent, punish the child immediately and harshly, eliminate any social rewards for performing the behavior, then you may be ultimately successful at getting a child to stop performing the behavior. However, if if applied in this way, it is not an argument for inflicting pain, as a harsh punishment can be applied without doing so. Also, most people don't apply punishments in the way detailed above.



Offline beeweegee

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #464 on: November 17, 2019, 08:08:57 PM »
Short answer - not really.  There will always be contextual variables that come into play that can potentially impact any given behavioral outcome (and there are also individual differences in the ways we respond to different forms of consequences), but as a general rule, no - research indicates that punishment isn't generally all that effective in minimizing unwanted behavior unless there are several specific criteria met.

It should be added that corporal punishment, while legal, has been found to be the best predictor of aggression in children, and has been linked to lower levels of moral internalization and decreased mental health, including adolescent depression and social anxiety. I know this goes beyond your question, but is worth mentioning for those who go beyond the slap on the wrist when running in the street...

Back to the idea of punishment (or in the case of your question, "inflicting pain"), lab studies conducted on rats, monkeys, and humans demonstrate that it is almost impossible for punishment to successfully reduce an undesired behavior in real life. The way for punishment to actually reduce an undesired behavior is when it is:
-highly intense
-consistently applied
-no delay between the behavior and the punishment
-there are no competing rewards for the same behavior

So if you are extremely consistent, punish the child immediately and harshly, eliminate any social rewards for performing the behavior, then you may be ultimately successful at getting a child to stop performing the behavior. However, if if applied in this way, it is not an argument for inflicting pain, as a harsh punishment can be applied without doing so. Also, most people don't apply punishments in the way detailed above.
All this having been said, there are developmental psychologists on both sides of this argument. But the general consensus in the field is that positive reinforcement (rewarding positive behavior, making it more likely that it will occur again) is FAR more effective than punishment of any kind, especially negative punishment (which inflicting pain is).