Author Topic: PC friday question of the day.  (Read 184655 times)

Offline CountValentine

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #460 on: November 17, 2019, 07:22:31 PM »
You can't conflate what some idiot did to his kid with actual proper child-rearing, that's just stupid and short-sighted. And if you think that giving consequences to your kids just begets some sort of Pavlovian training to do or not do something then I think you're either an idiot or just haven't actually thought that through.
Someone needs a chill pill.
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Offline beeweegee

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #461 on: November 17, 2019, 07:37:15 PM »
I think the slap and discipline is a pavlovic type of shock therapy.

It's why a human being in general will pull back from fire and not touch it.. or the time my heater wasn't working and I put my finger in it and got such a zap etc

The problem is, it can have different reactions to different humans, my cat was never disciplined but instead became afraid of me.

My friend who tried throwing his kid in pool to teach him to swim, kid was scared of the pool for years.
I haven't been following this thread, but I just want to point out that people pulling their hands away from fire has nothing to do with Pavlov (who is responsible for the "discovery" of classical conditioning), but rather B. F. Skinner and John Watson, who are associated with the development of operant conditioning - the idea that when specific consequences are associated with a particular voluntary action, it makes a person more or less likely to engage in that action again, depending on whether the consequence is pleasant or distressing (i.e., a reward or a punishment). Happy to explain further if you have any specific questions.

I'm also not at all sure what you are referring to as shock therapy, nor what its association is with Pavlov.

Source: I'm a college professor who teaches developmental psychology courses and behaviorism.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #462 on: November 17, 2019, 07:41:31 PM »
Happy to explain further if you have any specific questions.
Since you offered.  :)
Is inflicting pain the proper way to stop a child from doing dangerous things (running across the street/touching a hot pot).
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Offline beeweegee

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #463 on: November 17, 2019, 08:05:30 PM »
Since you offered.  :)
Is inflicting pain the proper way to stop a child from doing dangerous things (running across the street/touching a hot pot).
Short answer - not really.  There will always be contextual variables that come into play that can potentially impact any given behavioral outcome (and there are also individual differences in the ways we respond to different forms of consequences), but as a general rule, no - research indicates that punishment isn't generally all that effective in minimizing unwanted behavior unless there are several specific criteria met.

It should be added that corporal punishment, while legal, has been found to be the best predictor of aggression in children, and has been linked to lower levels of moral internalization and decreased mental health, including adolescent depression and social anxiety. I know this goes beyond your question, but is worth mentioning for those who go beyond the slap on the wrist when running in the street...

Back to the idea of punishment (or in the case of your question, "inflicting pain"), lab studies conducted on rats, monkeys, and humans demonstrate that it is almost impossible for punishment to successfully reduce an undesired behavior in real life. The way for punishment to actually reduce an undesired behavior is when it is:
-highly intense
-consistently applied
-no delay between the behavior and the punishment
-there are no competing rewards for the same behavior

So if you are extremely consistent, punish the child immediately and harshly, eliminate any social rewards for performing the behavior, then you may be ultimately successful at getting a child to stop performing the behavior. However, if if applied in this way, it is not an argument for inflicting pain, as a harsh punishment can be applied without doing so. Also, most people don't apply punishments in the way detailed above.



Offline beeweegee

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #464 on: November 17, 2019, 08:08:57 PM »
Short answer - not really.  There will always be contextual variables that come into play that can potentially impact any given behavioral outcome (and there are also individual differences in the ways we respond to different forms of consequences), but as a general rule, no - research indicates that punishment isn't generally all that effective in minimizing unwanted behavior unless there are several specific criteria met.

It should be added that corporal punishment, while legal, has been found to be the best predictor of aggression in children, and has been linked to lower levels of moral internalization and decreased mental health, including adolescent depression and social anxiety. I know this goes beyond your question, but is worth mentioning for those who go beyond the slap on the wrist when running in the street...

Back to the idea of punishment (or in the case of your question, "inflicting pain"), lab studies conducted on rats, monkeys, and humans demonstrate that it is almost impossible for punishment to successfully reduce an undesired behavior in real life. The way for punishment to actually reduce an undesired behavior is when it is:
-highly intense
-consistently applied
-no delay between the behavior and the punishment
-there are no competing rewards for the same behavior

So if you are extremely consistent, punish the child immediately and harshly, eliminate any social rewards for performing the behavior, then you may be ultimately successful at getting a child to stop performing the behavior. However, if if applied in this way, it is not an argument for inflicting pain, as a harsh punishment can be applied without doing so. Also, most people don't apply punishments in the way detailed above.
All this having been said, there are developmental psychologists on both sides of this argument. But the general consensus in the field is that positive reinforcement (rewarding positive behavior, making it more likely that it will occur again) is FAR more effective than punishment of any kind, especially negative punishment (which inflicting pain is).

Offline EliJelly

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #465 on: November 17, 2019, 08:17:22 PM »
  lab studies conducted on rats, monkeys, and humans demonstrate..
Sorry.. You might be right, but as long my child doesn't suffer from severe misbehavior, or anything ending with a "D", I'll take the following advise over all the fancy words in yours.
As a parent to 11 children, I can tell you that ....

Offline CountValentine

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #466 on: November 17, 2019, 08:41:19 PM »
I'll take the following advise over all the fancy words in yours.
Maybe you should follow the Duggar's way of parenting since you are going by quantity. They have 19.
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Online aygart

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #467 on: November 17, 2019, 08:46:55 PM »
Sorry.. You might be right, but as long my child doesn't suffer from severe misbehavior, or anything ending with a "D", I'll take the following advise over all the fancy words in yours.
Why would you go with 11 children all brought up in a simlar environment which may or may not be the same as your children's?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline EliJelly

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #468 on: November 17, 2019, 08:53:06 PM »
Thanks God I'm not really into looking for parenting advise, my kids are well behaved. I just found @ExGingi point to be very accurate. When you have multiple kids you should know that one size doesn't fits all, which was his sole point.  Bringing much of this debate to a conclusion.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #469 on: November 17, 2019, 08:58:40 PM »
Thanks God I'm not really into looking for parenting advise, my kids are well behaved. I just found @ExGingi point to be very accurate. When you have multiple kids you should know that one size doesn't fits all, which was his sole point.  Bringing much of this debate to a conclusion.
Much of the debate is about hitting. We all know one size doesn't fit all. The question is when inflicting pain is a fit.
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #470 on: November 17, 2019, 09:02:06 PM »
Much of the debate is about hitting. We all know one size doesn't fit all. The question is when inflicting pain is a fit.
I don't really think inflicting pain has much to do with it. A small slap on the wrist isn't very painful, it's more the fact that the child can tell very much how strongly the parent feels about what they just did. If your kid runs into the street, you give him a small slap on the wrist which doesn't really hurt but he's starts crying because he call tell that you're upset with him, then you hug him and tell him that you don't want anything to ever happen to him because you love him so much. Idk, just my $.02 coming from no actual experience.
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Offline davidrotts63

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #471 on: November 17, 2019, 09:02:52 PM »
Sunday is the new friday: Satmar.
(Quit) pulling out the flowers, and watering the weeds. -Peter Lynch

Offline EliJelly

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #472 on: November 17, 2019, 09:05:31 PM »
I don't really think inflicting pain has much to do with it. A small slap on the wrist isn't very painful, it's more the fact that the child can tell very much how strongly the parent feels about what they just did. If your kid runs into the street, you give him a small slap on the wrist which doesn't really hurt but he's starts crying because he call tell that you're upset with him, then you hug him and tell him that you don't want anything to ever happen to him because you love him so much. Idk, just my $.02 coming from no actual experience.
By now even the wall understands already, buy wouldn't be surprised seeing @CountValentine asking over the same question again.
 

Offline CountValentine

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #473 on: November 17, 2019, 09:05:49 PM »
I don't really think inflicting pain has much to do with it. A small slap on the wrist isn't very painful, it's more the fact that the child can tell very much how strongly the parent feels about what they just did. If your kid runs into the street, you give him a small slap on the wrist which doesn't really hurt but he's starts crying because he call tell that you're upset with him, then you hug him and tell him that you don't want anything to ever happen to him because you love him so much. Idk, just my $.02 coming from no actual experience.
Can we stop with the slap on the wrist smokescreen. You hit your child so he feels pain, PERIOD!!!
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #474 on: November 17, 2019, 09:08:12 PM »
By now even the wall understands already, buy wouldn't be surprised seeing @CountValentine asking over the same question again.
You sound like the guy backing out of the coin deal trying to convince himself he is doing nothing wrong. If you want to hit your kids then call it for what it is.
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #475 on: November 17, 2019, 09:14:56 PM »
Sunday is the new friday: Satmar.
#escalade
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Offline davidrotts63

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #476 on: November 17, 2019, 09:17:45 PM »
Coins are the new Trump.
(Quit) pulling out the flowers, and watering the weeds. -Peter Lynch

Offline CountValentine

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #477 on: November 17, 2019, 09:25:30 PM »
Coins are Slap on the wrist is the new Trump.
:)
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #478 on: November 17, 2019, 10:14:50 PM »
I don't really think inflicting pain has much to do with it. A small slap on the wrist isn't very painful, it's more the fact that the child can tell very much how strongly the parent feels about what they just did. If your kid runs into the street, you give him a small slap on the wrist which doesn't really hurt but he's starts crying because he call tell that you're upset with him, then you hug him and tell him that you don't want anything to ever happen to him because you love him so much. Idk, just my $.02 coming from no actual experience.
So the best way to show you feel strongly about something is with a slap?

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #479 on: November 17, 2019, 10:32:45 PM »
Can we stop with the slap on the wrist smokescreen. You hit your child so he feels pain, PERIOD!!!
Speak for yourself.
Feelings don't care about your facts