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« Last edited by Dan on October 20, 2016, 08:05:15 PM »

Author Topic: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons  (Read 322635 times)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1200 on: September 20, 2018, 11:22:03 PM »
Dismissing thousands of yidden as "crazy"? Bias but not "sinas chinam".

Calling an established minhag Yisrael - which, need I remind you, Torah hi - a breach of halacha? Stubbornness, not "sinas chinam"

Being mevazeh a Talmid chacham berabim? Oh that is just CBC being CBC, no baseless sinah there.

You'll notice that in this very thread and in numerous others there is loads of questioning Chabad custom. How many got branded a soneh Yisrael?

One need not read through all the texts provided about this custom, the answer to the question is right there on the very first line. Literally. I've heard countless claims and accusations against Lubavitch. Never heard of Tehillim after davenning being an issue.

While it's generous of you to be melamed zchus, the prism I see is denigrating g'dolei Yisroel and generations of ehrliche Yidden based on nothing. That seems to me to be the very definition of sinas chinam.

I barely ever answer CBC seriously, it's almost always jokes from me - for the reasons @ExGingi mentioned. But you wanted to know why some would find his "biased prism" hateful, so here is a look into one instance, without delving into his post history.

There is a story I heard about a kindergarten aged child of Rabbi Slavaticki in Antwerp, and I don't know how true it is nor do I care. A non-Chabad classmate said to her, "my father doesn't like your Rebbe." To which she responded, "But my Rebbe loves your father."
Really wrong to attribute things to people,then continually attack them, all because the expressed some mild criticism of a minhag.

You guys are really all way too thin skinned and sensitive. -
I have not expressed any hate whatsoever. It's all just being projected on me as some kind of defense mechanism instead of addressing, ignoring or accepting the actual critique.

One guy calls me a sonei yisroel,next I'm somehow calling people crazy etc it just keeps going on.

The funny thing is that I really didn't intend to present a whole criticism of this thing. I mentioned it,and then was supprised that people seemed to not even know what I'm talking about, and had never heard of this well established criticism of this minhag.. so I elaborated more.

Wtvr

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1201 on: September 20, 2018, 11:25:00 PM »
Dismissing thousands of yidden as "crazy"? Bias but not "sinas chinam".

Calling an established minhag Yisrael - which, need I remind you, Torah hi - a breach of halacha? Stubbornness, not "sinas chinam"

Being mevazeh a Talmid chacham berabim? Oh that is just CBC being CBC, no baseless sinah there.

You'll notice that in this very thread and in numerous others there is loads of questioning Chabad custom. How many got branded a soneh Yisrael?

One need not read through all the texts provided about this custom, the answer to the question is right there on the very first line. Literally. I've heard countless claims and accusations against Lubavitch. Never heard of Tehillim after davenning being an issue.

While it's generous of you to be melamed zchus, the prism I see is denigrating g'dolei Yisroel and generations of ehrliche Yidden based on nothing. That seems to me to be the very definition of sinas chinam.

I barely ever answer CBC seriously, it's almost always jokes from me - for the reasons @ExGingi mentioned. But you wanted to know why some would find his "biased prism" hateful, so here is a look into one instance, without delving into his post history.

There is a story I heard about a kindergarten aged child of Rabbi Slavaticki in Antwerp, and I don't know how true it is nor do I care. A non-Chabad classmate said to her, "my father doesn't like your Rebbe." To which she responded, "But my Rebbe loves your father."
And just to address what you claim is a "bizui talmid chacham", it was not at all. Just relative to anshei knesses hagedola and others who organized the davening, it arguably can be discussed in such context

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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1202 on: September 21, 2018, 01:30:29 AM »
well established criticism of this minhag..
WTH????

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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1203 on: September 21, 2018, 01:52:13 AM »
And just to address what you claim is a "bizui talmid chacham", it was not at all. Just relative to anshei knesses hagedola and others who organized the davening, it arguably can be discussed in such context
You are probably aware that a lot of your nusach and minhagei hatefilla were instituted by the mekubalim, many years after anshei knesses hagedolah.
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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1204 on: September 21, 2018, 03:03:39 AM »

FTFY
Untrue. Unless you're referring to tinokos shenishbu. Even then it may not be assur just not a chiyuv, though IDK.
Dismissing thousands of yidden as "crazy"? Bias but not "sinas chinam".

Calling an established minhag Yisrael - which, need I remind you, Torah hi - a breach of halacha? Stubbornness, not "sinas chinam"

Being mevazeh a Talmid chacham berabim? Oh that is just CBC being CBC, no baseless sinah there.

You'll notice that in this very thread and in numerous others there is loads of questioning Chabad custom. How many got branded a soneh Yisrael?

One need not read through all the texts provided about this custom, the answer to the question is right there on the very first line. Literally. I've heard countless claims and accusations against Lubavitch. Never heard of Tehillim after davenning being an issue.

While it's generous of you to be melamed zchus, the prism I see is denigrating g'dolei Yisroel and generations of ehrliche Yidden based on nothing. That seems to me to be the very definition of sinas chinam.

I barely ever answer CBC seriously, it's almost always jokes from me - for the reasons @ExGingi mentioned. But you wanted to know why some would find his "biased prism" hateful, so here is a look into one instance, without delving into his post history.

There is a story I heard about a kindergarten aged child of Rabbi Slavaticki in Antwerp, and I don't know how true it is nor do I care. A non-Chabad classmate said to her, "my father doesn't like your Rebbe." To which she responded, "But my Rebbe loves your father."
My understanding of sinah is bearing ill will, that  you wish ill on another. Otherwise you are just thinking negatively of another, which may be wrong, but is not hate. I had no intent of limud zechus, I just don't see hate neccessarily, just very different worlds.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1205 on: September 21, 2018, 07:12:21 AM »
You are probably aware that a lot of your nusach and minhagei hatefilla were instituted by the mekubalim, many years after anshei knesses hagedolah.
"and others"

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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1206 on: September 21, 2018, 10:08:59 AM »
Found some more background:

Daily Recitation of Tehillim

In the midst of a perilous period for Chabad and indeed, for much of Jewry. The Soviet establishment launched an oppressive campaign in all the territories under its vast dominion with the design of suffocating every last vestige of the Jewish soul – Torah education, belief in G-d, and the practical observance of the mitzvos. Despite the far reach of their secret police and the sheer terror of their ruthless methods, the Communists discovered that a lone citizen was successful in consistently and methodically unwinding their evil designs on a massive scale.

That man was Rabbi Yosef Yitzchok Schneersohn, who formed and personally directed a breathtaking labyrinth of underground Torah schools, synagogues, mikvehs, and the like. He sent overt and covert emissaries, teachers and instructors who were willing to risk their lives to keep the flame of Torah and mitzvos alight in every region of the USSR. He also founded branches of his Torah schools outside the USSR, in Poland, Uzbekistan and in America.

Rabbi Yosef Yitzchok was hounded mercilessly by the Soviets, but he ignored their intimidation. In 5687 (1926), however, he sensed that the enemy was poised to strike a deadly blow. In response, he requested that the book of Tehillim as it is divided into daily portions to be completed in the course of a month, be recited in all synagogues.

Listen, Chassidim, and all Jews who await the coming of Moshiach! Repeat in my name to all Chassidim in the world that I have instructed them to recite a portion of Tehillim as divided by the days of the month in all Chassidic synagogues after morning prayers each day, including Shabbos.
Excerpt of 1927 handwritten directive discovered on his desk on the day of his arrest

Rabbi Yosef Yitzchok was arrested and suffered a brutal incarceration. The Soviets swiftly sentenced the Rebbe to death – a decree that was miraculously reversed, with the help of enormous international outcry. So complete was the reversal that the Soviets were subsequently compelled to escort Rabbi Yosef Yitzchok with his family and his possessions out of the USSR’s iron borders to freedom.

An account by the Rebbe’s close confidant and devoted follower, Rabbi Eliyahu Chaim Althaus, immortalizes Rabbi Yosef Yitzchok’s reflection on the effectiveness of reciting the daily Tehillim:

These were his exact words: “Before 5687 (1927) I was greatly afraid. I did not speculate what my own fate would be, for I never imagined what I would have to endure. Rather, my fear was for the Chassidim. Before I instructed them to begin saying Tehillim, it was really difficult for me.”

 

“(With regard to) the recital of Tehillim (daily, after davening) – there is no distinction (i.e. it applies equally) between Shuls of ‘Anash’ (a reference to the Chabad Chassidic Fellowship) and to those who follow the Ashkenazic or Polish nusach – may G-d be with them. On account of Ahavat Yisrael, love of our fellow…and especially in view of the importance and inner purpose of saying Tehillim with a minyan, which literally affects all of Israel, materially in “children, life and sustenance,” and spiritually …we must endeavor with every means possible that it become an established practice in every shul of every nusach.”
– From a letter of the Previous Rebbe, Rabbi Yosef Yitzchok

Tehillim Corresponding to One’s Age

“(It is well known the custom which the Alter Rebbe received)…from his master, who in turn received it from his master the Ba’al Shem Tov, to recite the chapter of Tehillim corresponding to one’s age, after the morning prayer (Shachris), prior to reciting the customary daily Tehillim…”
– From ‘Kovetz Michtavim’ – a selection of letters by  Rabbi Yosef Yitzchok Schneerson, regarding Saying Tehillim

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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1207 on: September 21, 2018, 10:58:30 AM »
Found some more background English adaptation of sources brought above
FTFY
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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1208 on: September 21, 2018, 11:12:47 AM »
Untrue. Unless you're referring to tinokos shenishbu. Even then it may not be assur just not a chiyuv, though IDK.
If you DK, then why don't you first look it up?




Quote
My understanding of sinah is bearing ill will, that  you wish ill on another. Otherwise you are just thinking negatively of another, which may be wrong, but is not hate. I had no intent of limud zechus, I just don't see hate neccessarily, just very different worlds.

Here again. Look into the ma'amar I quoted above (החלצו תרנ"ט) and you might understand what sinah is, and learn more about avoiding it.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1209 on: September 21, 2018, 11:31:42 AM »
If you DK, then why don't you first look it up?

Here again. Look into the ma'amar I quoted above (החלצו תרנ"ט) and you might understand what sinah is, and learn more about avoiding it.
Look it up? You think there's only one shita on the subject of v'ohavta l'rayacha and sinas chinam?

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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1210 on: September 21, 2018, 11:52:13 AM »
Look it up? You think there's only one shita on the subject of v'ohavta l'rayacha and sinas chinam?

Go ahead. Since the title of this thread starts with the word Chabad, I am bringing the Chabad perspective.

Why don't you learn the sources I brought, and if you feel there are other credible sources that disagree, go ahead and present them.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1211 on: September 21, 2018, 03:12:46 PM »
.

Listen, Chassidim, and all Jews who await the coming of Moshiach! Repeat in my name to all Chassidim in the world that I have instructed them to recite a portion of Tehillim as divided by the days of the month in all Chassidic synagogues after morning prayers each day, including Shabbos.
Excerpt of 1927 handwritten directive discovered on his desk on the day of his arrest


“(With regard to) the recital of Tehillim (daily, after davening) – there is no distinction (i.e. it applies equally) between Shuls of ‘Anash’ (a reference to the Chabad Chassidic Fellowship) and to those who follow the Ashkenazic or Polish nusach – may G-d be with them. On account of Ahavat Yisrael, love of our fellow…and especially in view of the importance and inner purpose of saying Tehillim with a minyan, which literally affects all of Israel, materially in “children, life and sustenance,” and spiritually …we must endeavor with every means possible that it become an established practice in every shul of every nusach.”
– From a letter of the Previous Rebbe, Rabbi Yosef Yitzchok


Ftfy to separate out the issue at hand from all the maaselach
Note his reference to nussach, minyan etc

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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1212 on: September 21, 2018, 03:16:29 PM »
Ftfy to separate out the issue at hand from all the maaselach
Note his reference to nussach, minyan etc

I have yet to see one quoted halachic authority that said it's a problem to say tehillim after davening.

But you continue to say how surprised you are that people don't know the known criticism of this practice.

Have you posted a source in this thread?
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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1213 on: September 21, 2018, 03:36:57 PM »
I have yet to see one quoted halachic authority that said it's a problem to say tehillim after davening.

But you continue to say how surprised you are that people don't know the known criticism of this practice.

Have you posted a source in this thread?
I'm not going to post any criticism anymore.. it doesn't go over well.


But your post is telling on the intent and context of this takana.

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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1214 on: September 21, 2018, 03:54:50 PM »
But your post is telling on the intent and context of this takana.

Very telling to you, based on your prism, and very telling to (most) others based on their prism.
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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1215 on: September 21, 2018, 05:02:30 PM »
Very telling to you, based on your prism, and very telling to (most) others based on their prism.
This is not a prism thing, it's a direct quote. I'm not providing any commentary.

"we must endeavor with every means possible that it become an established practice in every shul of every nusach.”

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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1216 on: September 21, 2018, 05:05:25 PM »
This is not a prism thing, it's a direct quote. I'm not providing any commentary.

"we must endeavor with every means possible that it become an established practice in every shul of every nusach.”
Right.

Just like daf hayomi wasn't restricted to any specific shul or nusach. Since it has nothing to do with nusach hatefilla.
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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1217 on: September 21, 2018, 05:06:18 PM »
Right.

Just like daf hayomi wasn't restricted to any specific shul or nusach. Since it has nothing to do with nusach hatefilla.
With a minyan huh?

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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1218 on: September 21, 2018, 05:09:59 PM »
With a minyan huh?
You never heard of Tehillim being said with a minyan?
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Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1219 on: September 21, 2018, 05:59:35 PM »
משנה ברורה סימן תקפא ס"ק ג
Is that aveira of saying tehilim after davening and followed by a kadish(!!!) only allowed for goyim?
im still waiting for an explanation of this