Topic Wiki

Lots of stringencies, but you can keep one day shabbos in hawaii without guilt.

SFs pros and cons list: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=10713.msg68565#msg68565
« Last edited by Dan on October 20, 2016, 08:05:15 PM »

Author Topic: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons  (Read 143660 times)

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 57636
  • Total likes: 5303
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1170 on: September 20, 2018, 10:55:55 AM »
Why is criticism, wrong or right, sinas chinam? 
When it's based on a long pattern of hateful posts over many years.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline chinagel

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 3358
  • Total likes: 227
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1171 on: September 20, 2018, 11:00:26 AM »
When it's based on a long pattern of hateful posts over many years.
So he definitely has a problem with chabad and thinks they do many things wrong. Still not sinas chinam. If he wouldn't stop to help a chabad guy change a flat, that's something else.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 57636
  • Total likes: 5303
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1172 on: September 20, 2018, 11:18:46 AM »
So he definitely has a problem with chabad and thinks they do many things wrong. Still not sinas chinam. If he wouldn't stop to help a chabad guy change a flat, that's something else.
It's well past that IMHO, but to each their own. Perhaps we have different views on what constitutes ahavas yisroel and sinas chinam.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 11023
  • Total likes: 4806
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1173 on: September 20, 2018, 11:21:03 AM »
So he definitely has a problem with chabad and thinks they do many things wrong. Still not sinas chinam. If he wouldn't stop to help a chabad guy change a flat, that's something else.
According to some there is a chiyuv min hatorah to do that for someone you hate.

FTR, I do not see how his criticism, which i disagree with, constitutes sinas chinam.
Just because things turned out a certain way doesn't mean you were right.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 57636
  • Total likes: 5303
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1174 on: September 20, 2018, 11:22:41 AM »
According to some there is a chiyuv min hatorah to do that for someone you hate.

FTR, I do not see how his criticism, which i disagree with, constitutes sinas chinam.
It's not about criticism. Ya'll are missing the boat.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 8896
  • Total likes: 2263
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1175 on: September 20, 2018, 11:25:34 AM »
FTR, I do not see how his criticism, which i disagree with, constitutes sinas chinam.

I don't think @Dan is saying that any specific criticism constitutes sinas chinam, but rather that his criticism likely STEMS from sinas chinam.

See: http://chabadpedia.co.il/index.php/%D7%94%D7%97%D7%9C%D7%A6%D7%95_%D7%AA%D7%A8%D7%A0%22%D7%98 (I'll try to find a link to the actual text of the Ma'amar).

Here goes. If I find a better link I will post later.

For video shiurim on the ma'amar (in Hebrew) see:

« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 11:34:19 AM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 2042
  • Total likes: 2978
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1176 on: September 20, 2018, 11:28:28 AM »
Why is criticism, wrong or right, sinas chinam?
In addition to @Dan's answer, there's a huge difference between respectfully questioning a practice and branding said practice - done daily by thousands of Yidden - as being against halacha.

Now, add to that that the practice was instituted by a tremendous tzadik about whom there is no time or space right here to detail his literal mesirus nefesh for teaching Torah. This tzadik was then accused of breaking halacha "on a whim."

The amount of restraint on the part of forum members in response to that is admirable.

But on top of that, even had it been respectful questioning, not abhorrent hate mongering, the question was answered numerous times. The Tehillim is said after davenning, and the Frierdiker Rebbe even made sure to insist that a kaddish be said after davenning and before Tehillim to remove any illusion of it being a part of davenning. The name of the practice, as referred to by Chassidim and by the Frierdiker Rebbe in describing the practice is "Tehillim AFTER davenning."

The fact that he continues to double down on his absurd "changing nusach hatefillah" claims, even in the face of hearing Tehillim is recited after davenning in BMG, is more than telling.

There are also many other non Chabad shuls who add Tehillim for the land and/or residents of Israel, the troops, sick people and any number of causes and reasons. Yet they didn't "change nusach hatefillah on a whim".

Upthread I satirically said how Chabad replaced shema and shemona esrei with Tehillim. Patently absurd, right? Well, wouldn't you know, a few posts later that idea was posted in all seriousness as a criticism.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Online yitzgar

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2016
  • Posts: 1784
  • Total likes: 378
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1177 on: September 20, 2018, 11:56:06 AM »
In addition to @Dan's answer, there's a huge difference between respectfully questioning a practice and branding said practice - done daily by thousands of Yidden - as being against halacha.

Now, add to that that the practice was instituted by a tremendous tzadik about whom there is no time or space right here to detail his literal mesirus nefesh for teaching Torah. This tzadik was then accused of breaking halacha "on a whim."

The amount of restraint on the part of forum members in response to that is admirable.

But on top of that, even had it been respectful questioning, not abhorrent hate mongering, the question was answered numerous times. The Tehillim is said after davenning, and the Frierdiker Rebbe even made sure to insist that a kaddish be said after davenning and before Tehillim to remove any illusion of it being a part of davenning. The name of the practice, as referred to by Chassidim and by the Frierdiker Rebbe in describing the practice is "Tehillim AFTER davenning."

The fact that he continues to double down on his absurd "changing nusach hatefillah" claims, even in the face of hearing Tehillim is recited after davenning in BMG, is more than telling.

There are also many other non Chabad shuls who add Tehillim for the land and/or residents of Israel, the troops, sick people and any number of causes and reasons. Yet they didn't "change nusach hatefillah on a whim".

Upthread I satirically said how Chabad replaced shema and shemona esrei with Tehillim. Patently absurd, right? Well, wouldn't you know, a few posts later that idea was posted in all seriousness as a criticism.
You were being sarcastic before!?

Offline shaulyaakov

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 2628
  • Total likes: 295
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1178 on: September 20, 2018, 01:20:32 PM »
There actually is a Halachic opinion (I don't remember the source), that we don't read Kesuvim (except for things in Nussach HaTefillah) on Shabbos from Laining of Shacharis until after laining at Mincha. That is an explaination I have heard for reading the Megillos on Shabbos Chol HaMoed before laining, when one would have logically expected them to be after laining (Tadir VeSheEino Tadir). I've never heard an objection to extra Tehillim on a weekday.

Whether that applied B'Zman HaZeh is a question.

 

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7247
  • Total likes: 283
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1179 on: September 20, 2018, 05:43:11 PM »
For what it's worth, I will say that even if someone had negative feelings of hatred towards a certain movement, outlook, following, belief system, or even religion; it does not at all mean that one has to hate the people in it/suscribing to it or following it.

So for eg if someone has a son who belongs to a deranged cult, he can hate the cult, and speak negativity about it for years, while loving his son more than ever before.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 57636
  • Total likes: 5303
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1180 on: September 20, 2018, 05:48:04 PM »
For what it's worth, I will say that even if someone had negative feelings of hatred towards a certain movement, outlook, following, belief system, or even religion; it does not at all mean that one has to hate the people in it/suscribing to it or following it.

So for eg if someone has a son who belongs to a deranged cult, he can hate the cult, and speak negativity about it for years, while loving his son more than ever before.
Sounds like someone talking about BDS/Israel and Jews in general.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 11023
  • Total likes: 4806
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1181 on: September 20, 2018, 06:01:28 PM »
Sounds like someone talking about BDS/Israel and Jews in general.
Other than that they do things to actually hurt the poeple they are talking about.
Just because things turned out a certain way doesn't mean you were right.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 8896
  • Total likes: 2263
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1182 on: September 20, 2018, 07:22:26 PM »
Other than that they do things to actually hurt the poeple they are talking about.
While a person that holds and exercises sinas chinam hurts himself.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline chinagel

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 3358
  • Total likes: 227
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1183 on: September 20, 2018, 07:38:40 PM »
In addition to @Dan's answer, there's a huge difference between respectfully questioning a practice and branding said practice - done daily by thousands of Yidden - as being against halacha.

Now, add to that that the practice was instituted by a tremendous tzadik about whom there is no time or space right here to detail his literal mesirus nefesh for teaching Torah. This tzadik was then accused of breaking halacha "on a whim."

The amount of restraint on the part of forum members in response to that is admirable.

But on top of that, even had it been respectful questioning, not abhorrent hate mongering, the question was answered numerous times. The Tehillim is said after davenning, and the Frierdiker Rebbe even made sure to insist that a kaddish be said after davenning and before Tehillim to remove any illusion of it being a part of davenning. The name of the practice, as referred to by Chassidim and by the Frierdiker Rebbe in describing the practice is "Tehillim AFTER davenning."

The fact that he continues to double down on his absurd "changing nusach hatefillah" claims, even in the face of hearing Tehillim is recited after davenning in BMG, is more than telling.

There are also many other non Chabad shuls who add Tehillim for the land and/or residents of Israel, the troops, sick people and any number of causes and reasons. Yet they didn't "change nusach hatefillah on a whim".

Upthread I satirically said how Chabad replaced shema and shemona esrei with Tehillim. Patently absurd, right? Well, wouldn't you know, a few posts later that idea was posted in all seriousness as a criticism.
Not sure why that's sinas chinam. It can just as easily be bias or stubbornness. Sinas chinam would be hating a fellow religious jew. I can think of many groups of jews that have criticisms on other groups but do not hate them. And some of those criticisms would be called by many others absurd.
Basically, Cbc thinks chabad is crazy and views them through that prism.

Offline MeirS

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 2371
  • Total likes: 84
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons
« Reply #1184 on: September 20, 2018, 07:53:04 PM »


Not sure why that's sinas chinam. It can just as easily be bias or stubbornness. Sinas chinam would be hating a fellow jew. I can think of many groups of jews that have criticisms on other groups but do not hate them. And some of those criticisms would be called by many others absurd.
Basically, Cbc thinks chabad is crazy and views them through that prism.

FTFY