Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons

[Yehuda57]

If I post the story of the guy who sold his esrog for R' Levi Yitzchak's gan eden, I guess some here won't understand why he "sold" it back.

[Lurker]

Serious question: have you ever met a chassid IRL?

Where I davened friday night a Lubavitcher davened for the amud

[EliJelly]

-1

Interesting, I saw this being brought down in a few contemporary seforim without one mentioning that the Mharshag deals with the Bracha too. I didn't look at his תשובה when you linked it first.

[imayid2]

Let me give this another shot: your choices are eat in the Sukkah in pouring rain dressed as you wish, or eat indoors but you are forced to wear nothing but high cut briefs while eating seudas Yom Tov (in public). Which one is a greater tzaar for YOU?

This is a much better example.
The latter.
But again I'm saying eat in the sukka just without a bracha. Evey Lubavitcher would have major tzar from not making a bracha more that they are getting soaked? Cmon that isn't believable.

[imayid2]

Story I heard which doesn't need to be true. A chossid in the gulag was starving and was told by another Yid to eat the treif food that was being served, as in his situation "men meg".

"Er farshteit nit. Nit az ich mein ich meg nisht essen, ich ken nisht essen."

This is a very nice story. I believe it is permitted to be מוסר נפש  in these circumstances. That doesn't have anything to do with making a bracha which doesn't seem to be allowed to be made.

[imayid2]

I'm about as unspiritual, cynical, or whatever a person as you'll meet. If I ate outside the sukkah by mistake, there was most definitely tzaar when I realized. I don't know how to classify it, but it's not dissimilar to the feeling of taking a bite of milchiks when you forgot you were still fleishik.

These are terrible examples. They both involve being עובר איסורים either דאורייתא or דרבנן inadvertently and have nothing to do with what we are talking about.

When I was 9 I flew from LHR - JFK during chol hamoed and didn't take so much as a sip of water. No one told me I couldn't. In fact I'm pretty sure my father would have told me I absolutely have to eat and drink something had I thought to ask him. It just wasn't an option.

Much better example as there is a real ptur playing out of כעין תדורו. Shouldn't you require a source to know if this feeling is appropriate or totally wrong?
If somebody decides that he will flog himself when he cannot be מקיים a מצות רשות, lets say כיסוי הדם, in order to have צער for not being מקיים a mitzva do you think it is appropriate? And then somehow he rationalizes that so that he shouldn't have that tzar he can make a Bracha without doing the mitzva.. do you appreciate how similar that analogy is? Only if the tzar is justified can there be an attempt an a reconciliatory answer here...

Happens to be IIRC there is mentioned an exclusive pietistic custom in regards to eating while traveling  mentioned in a ירושלמי so that would have merit. I wonder if anyone draws a similarity to rain. I can hear that that is different. If anyone has a source for that I'd honestly appreciate it. Not that it would answer my question because I keep saying. Eat in the sukka. Just don't make a bracha.

[imayid2]

Serious question: have you ever met a chassid IRL?

I don't know what IRL stands for. But in general Chassidic customs are discussed and rationalized from a halachik standpoint. This doesn't seem to be discussed anywhere, and Chabad sources I've seen indicate that if these feelings aren't felt it would be the wrong thing to do. So how is it a universal thing default thing? And is there anyone that discusses the question directly?
These attempt to paint this question of mine as stemming from a lack of understanding how a חסיד feels  is utterly ridiculous. Even the few sources that were cited above that no one can accuse of not understanding, are perfectly clear that it is only יחידי סגולה that would qualify for this.

[imayid2]

Why do people seem to think that strong feelings attached to eating outside the sukka is somehow a halachik answer to this question? It is not. The feelings would have to be directly related to not being able to have a קיום המצוה which would be necessary even if they wouldn't be eating at all outside the sukka. Nobody's claimed yet to have these feelings. Does that prove my point?

[Yehuda57]

These are terrible examples. They both involve being עובר איסורים either דאורייתא or דרבנן inadvertently and have nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Sorry, I should have specified - mistakenly drinking water or eating a candy out of the sukkah.

Shouldn't you require a source to know if this feeling is appropriate or totally wrong?

Yes, at 9 years old I should totally have required a source for feeling that I shouldn't eat out of a sukkah. I'm still klapping al cheit for that one.

But again I'm saying eat in the sukka just without a bracha. Evey Lubavitcher would have major tzar from not making a bracha more that they are getting soaked? Cmon that isn't believable.

I'm as cynical as it gets and not only is it believable, it's a davar hapashut. I mean I won't say every Lubavitcher, that's absurd to make any statement at all about tens of thousands of individuals. But on the whole? Not even a sliver of doubt.

[imayid2]

Yes, at 9 years old I should totally have required a source for feeling that I shouldn't eat out of a sukkah. I'm still klapping al cheit for that one.

See my edit above for some more clarification.

I'm as cynical as it gets and not only is it believable, it's a davar hapashut. I mean I won't say every Lubavitcher, that's absurd to make any statement at all about tens of thousands of individuals. But on the whole? Not even a sliver of doubt.

Interesting. I'm extremely dubious of this but admit I have no standing to question this. Irrespectively, it's entirely unclear if that provides halachik justification to make a bracha.
I do not think anyone outside of Lubavitch is capable of understanding this.

[yelped]

See my edit above for some more clarification.Interesting. I'm extremely dubious of this but admit I have no standing to question this. Irrespectively, it's entirely unclear if that provides halachik justification to make a bracha.
I do not think anyone outside of Lubavitch is capable of understanding this.

I am not a Lubavitcher (sorry, ExGingi ), and I totally understand this. Lubavitcher Chassidim are the ultimate "Fahrbrente Chassidim". If you have been following just a few threads here you can see that. There is very little apathy over there as compared to other Chassidim where it varies a lot by the person.

[EliJelly]

Sorry, I should have specified - mistakenly drinking water or eating a candy out of the sukkah.

I'm as cynical as it gets and not only is it believable, it's a davar hapashut. I mean I won't say every Lubavitcher, that's absurd to make any statement at all about tens of thousands of individuals. But on the whole? Not even a sliver of doubt.

I am not a Lubavitcher (sorry, ExGingi ), and I totally understand this. Lubavitcher Chassidim are the ultimate "Fahrbrente Chassidim". If you have been following just a few threads here you can see that. There is very little apathy over there as compared to other Chassidim where it varies a lot by the person.

Being a Chossid myself I can understand this as we grew up with such stories, but here is my issue with it.

What if I told a Lubavitcher that Lubavitcher Rebbe was actually very lenient about eating/drinking fruits and water or when raining, outside the sukkah (I know he wasn't), would the average Lubavitcher today still have that tzaar? Of course not. My point is that when you grow up that eating outside the sukkah even when raining is not an option at all, of course you'll treat it like the עשרת הדברות and of course you'll have tremendous tzaar when eating outside the sukkah. What the seforim talk about a חסיד ובעל נפש who really feels the tzaar outside the sukkah is when one is aware that it's muttar l'ketchila but still can't bring himself to do so because his high level of devotion to ALL mitvos and everything yiddshkeit related, then for him the tzaar of eating indoors definitely outweighs the tzaar of eating in the rain, so the case can be made that he's fully מחיוב בסוכה even to the point of making a Bracha.

My beef is with throwing out such high terms like "I can't sleep in the sukkah because of the presence of God, or because I'm pained by not feeling the presence of God", "Making a Bracha in drenching rain because I feel no tzaar in the sukkah" etc, by very good yidden who can for instance go to a stadium ליל הושענא רבא to watch a ballgame (not that it's necessarily problematic, AYLOR). This is something that to me it's so beyond comprehension. Dovid Hamelech said לא הלכתי בגדלות ובנפלאות ממני, one must be a חסיד בכל מעשיו to make such high claims in order to do things not על פי שלחן ערוך.

The discussion at hand is not about pushing oneself to eat in the Sukkah when raining, as there is no Halachic violation involved and indeed many (most?) chassidim try to. We're talking of a חשש ברכה לבטלה and sleeping in Sukkah which is a מצות עשה מדאורייתא, telling a story of a Chossid in the Gulag isn't enought to brush that off unless you're such a chossid yourself. 

[Onefishtwofish]

My beef is with throwing out such high terms like "I can't sleep in the sukkah because of the presence of God, or because I'm pained by not feeling the presence of God", "Making a Bracha in drenching rain because I feel no tzaar in the sukkah" etc, by very good yidden who can for instance go to a stadium ליל הושענא רבא to watch a ballgame (not that it's necessarily problematic, AYLOR). This is something that to me it's so beyond comprehension. Dovid Hamelech said לא הלכתי בגדלות ובנפלאות ממני, one must be a חסיד בכל מעשיו to make such high claims in order to do things not על פי שלחן ערוך.

One point of one of the Rebbe's Sichos specifically about not sleeping in the sukkah is, that if the fridiker Rebbe could not sleep in the sukah due to the holiness of makifim of bina, us as Chassidim can't imagine to do something that the rebbeim would cause pain (in this case sleeping in the sukah even if we don't feel the holiness of the sukah and it's high spiritual levels) in other words of the Rebbe feels all the kedusha how can I do something that for the Rebbe is tzar, for us it is not a thinkable thing.
I hope this made sense.

[Yehuda57]

See my edit above for some more clarification.Interesting. I'm extremely dubious of this but admit I have no standing to question this. Irrespectively, it's entirely unclear if that provides halachik justification to make a bracha.
I do not think anyone outside of Lubavitch is capable of understanding this.

Honestly, it's not that difficult to understand that the same people who will go to the ends of the earth, literally, to get one single Jew to make one single brachah, one single time, and not give it a second thought, wouldn't be more bothered by rain than by missing a brachah.

It's not that we're any more "yechidei segulah" than anyone else, it's that the Rebbe lit a fire under us, and taught us the value of a mitzvah, no matter what. Even if, to borrow an example, you spend hoshana raba at a ballgame.

I am spending Yom Tov in a city with barely a minyan of shomer shabbos families. One of the Orthodox community members arranged a sukkah hop on Thursday night going from sukkah to sukkah at every Jewish orginzation, including Temples, etc. The last stop was at Chabad, and he told everyone that Chabad was last on the map, but it was the most important one. Because without Chabad there would be no sukkah hop. He explained:

About 20 years ago, he knew virtually nothing about yiddishkeit other than the fact he was Jewish himself. He met a Shliach who naturally encouraged him to do mitzvos, but one of the first occasions he was at the Chabad House was sukkos. The rain was pouring. The shliach was drenched, but eating in the sukkah. He assured this man he could eat inside and he need not eat in the sukkah. "But then why are you eating in the sukkah in the rain?" he asked the Shliach? "When I have the chance to connect with G-d and sit in His presence, rain isn't going to bother me." The man thought about it and joined the Shliach in the sukkah. He was not shomer shabbos, he didn't know what those words meant. Had you served him treif, he would have eaten it in the Shliach's sukkah, as he wouldn't have known it was a problem. But at that moment, he would have only eaten that tarfus in a sukkah!

I know the Shliach he was talking about. I'm telling you there are numerous obvious reasons he would not be considered "meyuchad" in any way. But he learned from the Rebbe not only the value of the mitzvah, but he was tofeach al mnas lhatfiach and passed it on to another Yid.

Years later, many Chabad Houses later, that man now is mostly shomer Torah umitzvos, raising a family of Jewish kids who are learning and doing more than him, and is arranging events to get other Yidden to do the same.

This is one story that happened to one single person that I just happened to hear a couple days ago.

I'm far from the most "farbrente Chassidim", too borrow yet another term. Yet I've walked miles in the rain on tahalucha just to spread simchas Yom Tov and dance in a shul on simchas Torah, or to blow shofar for a couple of people, or even just danced in the rain on the street for simchas Beis hashoevah. I'm not more holy than anyone on this thread. But when the Rebbe inculcates the value of positive actions and mitzvos, he turned each of us into anshei maaseh, even if we aren't yechidei segulah.

[imayid2]

One point of one of the Rebbe's Sichos specifically about not sleeping in the sukkah is, that if the fridiker Rebbe could not sleep in the sukah due to the holiness of makifim of bina, us as Chassidim can't imagine to do something that the rebbeim would cause pain (in this case sleeping in the sukah even if we don't feel the holiness of the sukah and it's high spiritual levels) in other words of the Rebbe feels all the kedusha how can I do something that for the Rebbe is tzar, for us it is not a thinkable thing.
I hope this made sense.

Without getting caught up in theological problems virtually any non Lubavitch has with this, it is only a justification if that pain is actually actively being felt. The Rebbe had high expectations. Can everyone honestly say they acutely feel this pain? If they cannot, there is a serious problem. FWIU the Rebbe agreed that if it's not felt its isnt a ptur.
So I've been questioning if it's adequately universally felt. The claim is yes.
However even if it is it doesn't seem to halichkly answer the bracha in the rain issue.

[Onefishtwofish]

So I've been questioning if it's adequately universally felt.

One has to derher the inyan of hiskashrus.

[imayid2]

Honestly, it's not that difficult to understand that the same people who will go to the ends of the earth, literally, to get one single Jew to make one single brachah, one single time, and not give it a second thought, wouldn't be more bothered by rain than by missing a brachah.

It's not that we're any more "yechidei segulah" than anyone else, it's that the Rebbe lit a fire under us, and taught us the value of a mitzvah, no matter what. Even if, to borrow an example, you spend hoshana raba at a ballgame.

I am spending Yom Tov in a city with barely a minyan of shomer shabbos families. One of the Orthodox community members arranged a sukkah hop on Thursday night going from sukkah to sukkah at every Jewish orginzation, including Temples, etc. The last stop was at Chabad, and he told everyone that Chabad was last on the map, but it was the most important one. Because without Chabad there would be no sukkah hop. He explained:

About 20 years ago, he knew virtually nothing about yiddishkeit other than the fact he was Jewish himself. He met a Shliach who naturally encouraged him to do mitzvos, but one of the first occasions he was at the Chabad House was sukkos. The rain was pouring. The shliach was drenched, but eating in the sukkah. He assured this man he could eat inside and he need not eat in the sukkah. "But then why are you eating in the sukkah in the rain?" he asked the Shliach? "When I have the chance to connect with G-d and sit in His presence, rain isn't going to bother me." The man thought about it and joined the Shliach in the sukkah. He was not shomer shabbos, he didn't know what those words meant. Had you served him treif, he would have eaten it in the Shliach's sukkah, as he wouldn't have known it was a problem. But at that moment, he would have only eaten that tarfus in a sukkah!

I know the Shliach he was talking about. I'm telling you there are numerous obvious reasons he would not be considered "meyuchad" in any way. But he learned from the Rebbe not only the value of the mitzvah, but he was tofeach al mnas lhatfiach and passed it on to another Yid.

Years later, many Chabad Houses later, that man now is mostly shomer Torah umitzvos, raising a family of Jewish kids who are learning and doing more than him, and is arranging events to get other Yidden to do the same.

This is one story that happened to one single person that I just happened to hear a couple days ago.

I'm far from the most "farbrente Chassidim", too borrow yet another term. Yet I've walked miles in the rain on tahalucha just to spread simchas Yom Tov and dance in a shul on simchas Torah, or to blow shofar for a couple of people, or even just danced in the rain on the street for simchas Beis hashoevah. I'm not more holy than anyone on this thread. But when the Rebbe inculcates the value of positive actions and mitzvos, he turned each of us into anshei maaseh, even if we aren't yechidei segulah.

I appreciate the way you articulated this even though I assume there are a lot of people not on your מדריגה who should be told the appropriate halacha.
However, it remains my understanding that according to the justifications in the two seforim cited above, this is still not a halachik justification to make a bracha.

[Dan]

This is a much better example.
The latter.
But again I'm saying eat in the sukka just without a bracha. Evey Lubavitcher would have major tzar from not making a bracha more that they are getting soaked? Cmon that isn't believable.

Honestly, after learning the Rebbe's approach to Sukkos as summarized by a simple dvar torah sefer like שולחן שבת, the peshitus is doing all we can to maximize everything we do in the sukkah and the temiah is doing anything out of the sukkah. The tzar of eating inside when it's raining is so basic it doesn't require explanation. This isn't about a baal medreiga, this is something every bar mitzvah bochur feels deeply.

It's even more obvious in this context,

My 10th grade rebbe in PIT Rabbi Deren told us the story of when he was on bochur shlichus in FL.

He was walking in the rain with another bochur and they had umbreallas open. An elderly lady stopped them and asked if they were lubavitcher chassidim. After answering in the affirmative she said that she used to take care of the Rebbe's mother. One day there was a heavy rainstorm and she wasn't able to get milk for her. The Rebbe visited and noticing there was no milk he insisted on going out himself to get milk for his mother. The lady handed the Rabbe an umbrella and the Rebbe smiled and asked why he would possibly want to use something that would seperate himself from one of Hashem's greatest blessings.

The lady never used an umbrella since. And the bochurim closed their umbrellas.

[Dan]

Honestly, after learning the Rebbe's approach to Sukkos as summarized by a simple sefer like שולחן שבת, the peshitus is doing all we can to maximize everything we do in the sukkah and the temiah is doing anything out of the sukkah.deeply.

Just a few for thought.

[Yehuda57]

I appreciate the way you articulated this even though I assume there are a lot of people not on your מדריגה who should be told the appropriate halacha.

LOL, I spend who knows how many words trying to tell you how I'm not a baal madreiga and this is the response. We're talking different languages.