Chabad Minhagim: Pros & Cons

[imayid2]

From שיעורי הלכה למעשה from r' Berel Levin

ז) ברכה על הסעודה בגשם
כעין זה מוצאים אנו שאנו נוהגים לברך לישב בסעודה גם כשיורד גשם, אף שמבואר בשוע"ר (סי' תרלט סי"ז): "שהוא מצטער מחמת הגשם וכל המצטער פטור מן הסוכה". (ושם סכ"ג): "כל הפטור מישיבת הסוכה ואינו יוצא מהסוכה אינו מקבל שכר על אותו ישיבה ואינו אלא מן ההדיוטות".

ובאמת יש מחלוקת הפוסקים, במי שמחמיר על עצמו לאכול בסוכה גם בעת הגשם, אם הוא יכול לברך לישב בסוכה, כמובא בברכי יוסף להחיד"א (סי' תרלט ס"ח): "וראיתי להרב החסיד מר זקני מהר"א אזולאי זלה"ה בהגהותיו כ"י שכתב יש שנסתפק אם רצו להחמיר על עצמן אותם שהם פטורים מסוכה לאכול ולישן מה אם מברכין עליה, וכתב בספר בית מועד דהואיל וקבעה עליו חובה גילה דעתו שאינו מצטער ומברך עכ"ד, ונראה לי שאין לסמוך על סברא זו ... ואם בירך הוי ברכה לבטלה".

אמנם אנו נוהגים כדעת הבית מועד, לאכול בסוכה ולברך עליה גם בעת הגשם, וכמובא ברשימות היומן (ע' רסב): "סוכות [תרצ"ג] בליל ב' וכן [ב]יום ב', הי' גשם שוטף, גם יותר משיעור דשו"ע, ואמר "לישב בסוכה" צריך לברך, וכן עשה"..

I do not see how this can be logically accepted. To go the בית מועד mehaich there needs to be the claim that physical discomfort is not being felt and is not a bother. This is not a claim that has been made here yet.
It is perfectly acceptable to say The Rebbe was on that level.

[Dan]

I do not see how this can be logically accepted.

Learn more chassidus. Otherwise, we are speaking different languages.

[aygart]

I do not see how this can be logically accepted. To go the בית מועד mehaich there needs to be the claim that physical discomfort is not being felt and is not a bother. This is not a claim that has been made here yet.
It is perfectly acceptable to say The Rebbe was on that level.

That is not what it says.

You will need to understand the mehalech among lubavitch in how they follow what the Rebbe did. In ways it is different than other chassidusin. Because and despite @ExGingi explaining it to me I have an inkling but do not fully understand it and realize that.

[Dan]

ETA: to paraphrase my grandmother, are ya'll made of sugar?

Baseball fans in steady rain without tzar. How is this possible?!? Were all 45,139 really on that level?!?

[aygart]

Learn more lubavitch chassidus. Otherwise, we are speaking different languages.

FTFY.

Not all go with the same mehalech.

[aygart]

Baseball fans in steady rain without tzar. How is this possible?!? Were all 45,139 really on that level?!?

Oy

[EliJelly]

My guess is that similar to אדם נפעל כפי פעולותיו, in Chabad they talk a certain way and act a certain way in order to really reach that דרגא.

(This sounds so good that I'm sure my pshat indeed has a source in sifrei Chabad )

[Pony]

You don't need to attribute the Rebbe's actions necessarily as a "mistake" for a reason not to imitate it.

See what the holy בני יששכר writes here;
https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=4702#p=118&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=

Wow! Those are some very strong words in that quote!

For the record, I never said the rebbe “made a mistake” in this inyan (although I firmly believe that no בשר ודם is above making a mistake). I was just mentioning that I don’t understand it and my feeling that this is something of a more general difference of opinion between chasidim and non chasidim on how to relate to the words of Torah leaders. I may very well be wrong and I’m certainly not trying to be pogaia in the kovod of any great rebbes or Torah leaders.

[Yehuda57]

My guess is that similar to אדם נפעל כפי פעולותיו, in Chabad they talk a certain way and act a certain way in order to really reach that דרגא.

(This sounds so good that I'm sure my pshat indeed has a source in sifrei Chabad )

Almost.

כופין אותו עד שיאמר רוצה אני. But that's stirah?! But b'emes he wants, he just needs help to reveal his true desire. We're not faking it until we make it, we b'emes have made it, we just might not realize it.

But that isn't applicable to the sukkah question, because even b'chitzoinius we have that feeling.

[imayid2]

That is not what it says.

גילה דעתו שאינו מצטער
Theברכי יוסף points that it isn't believable. The only way to uphold it through the halachik process is to apply it to people on that spiritual level. That is my understanding.

You will need to understand the mehalech among lubavitch in how they follow what the Rebbe did. In ways it is different than other chassidusin. Because and despite @ExGingi explaining it to me I have an inkling but do not fully understand it and realize that.

Agreed. Time to wrap this up. There is a reason that thread is locked.
Good YT to all. I sincerely appreciate everyone weighing in here in an intellectually honest way.

[yelped]

Not sure what the whole bruhaha over this is. I'll be the first to admit that Lubavitcher Chassidim may or may not be too "Fahrbrent", but the fact is they would be more metzaar at home than while sitting in the sukkah, and they can make a bracha without any cheshash (the Kamarna also writes about it). In fact, the tzaar of guilt of not pushing oneself to do a Mitzvah beshleimus is far stronger than some rain.

[jj1000]

@imayid2 I believe a lot of the Rebbe Chossid relationship is an emotional one and to have a discussion about it on a forum is just so limited in what can truly be conveyed.

Especially about something that's literally based on an emotion.

So, hopefully one of these sukkoses we will get to have a DO and really get into this

[aygart]

TBH, I wasn't aware of the שו"ת מהרש"ג up until last night. But I definitely know that canceling my identity would be way worse than eating in the Sukkah in the rain.

As a matter of fact, I alluded to doing things in the rain in another thread just a couple of days ago. It can be seen in two (general) levels. One is actually happiness about being able to stick to what defines my identity despite hardships - נתת ליראיך נס להתנוסס, overcoming the hardship puts me on a higher level (in a way similar to R Akiva saying מתי יבוא לידי ואקיימנה).

Another level I referred to as אנא נסיב מלכא - I don't care what else goes on. הן ולאו בהשוואה. All I care about is being connected and doing what I was told to do (which creates the connection), I am TOTALLY AMBIVALENT to what else goes on.

I believe that amongst chassidim both levels exist with plenty of sub levels.

Gut YT!

This goes back to the circular reasoning.

It seems it is a bit of circular reasoning. Why is there so much tzaar? Because it is the minhag. Why is it able to be the minhag? Because there is so much tzaar.

[zh cohen]

My guess is that similar to אדם נפעל כפי פעולותיו, in Chabad they talk a certain way and act a certain way in order to really reach that דרגא.

(This sounds so good that I'm sure my pshat indeed has a source in sifrei Chabad )

https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/2988153/jewish/-.htm

ראיתי רשימה ישָנה שבה נרשם סיפור מזמנו של רבינו הזקן: כאשר רבינו הזקן התחיל לפרסם תורת החסידות ברייסין וליטא, באו לפניו להתאונן על החסידים, ותוכן טענתם, שהם מעמידים פנים ועושים עצמם כאילו שייכים הם להתבוננות, לאהבת ה' וליראת ה', ללימוד תורת החסידות ועבודת החסידות, בה בשעה שאינם שייכים לכך ("זיי האַלטן גאָרניט דערביי"). רבינו הזקן שמע את דברי ה"מסירה", והשיב: ככה, ככה ("אַזוי, אַזוי")?! – אם כן, יקויים בהם פסק המשנה... "כל מי שאינו לא חיגר ולא סומא ולא פיסח ועושה עצמו כאחד מהם, אינו מת מן הזקנה עד שיהי' כאחד מהם"73. – כיון שעושים את עצמם חסידים, ועושים את עצמם שיש להם אהבת ה' ויראת ה', התבוננות ואריכות התפלה, וכל פרטי הענינים שדורשת תורת החסידות, מובטח להם שלא ימותו מן הזקנה עד שיהיו כן!...

[EliJelly]

ראיתי רשימה ישָנה שבה נרשם סיפור מזמנו של רבינו הזקן72: כאשר רבינו הזקן התחיל לפרסם תורת החסידות ברייסין וליטא, באו לפניו להתאונן על החסידים, ותוכן טענתם, שהם מעמידים פנים ועושים עצמם כאילו שייכים הם להתבוננות, לאהבת ה' וליראת ה', ללימוד תורת החסידות ועבודת החסידות, בה בשעה שאינם שייכים לכך ("זיי האַלטן גאָרניט דערביי"). רבינו הזקן שמע את דברי ה"מסירה", והשיב: ככה, ככה ("אַזוי, אַזוי")?! – אם כן, יקויים בהם פסק המשנה... "כל מי שאינו לא חיגר ולא סומא ולא פיסח ועושה עצמו כאחד מהם, אינו מת מן הזקנה עד שיהי' כאחד מהם"73. – כיון שעושים את עצמם חסידים, ועושים את עצמם שיש להם אהבת ה' ויראת ה', התבוננות ואריכות התפלה, וכל פרטי הענינים שדורשת תורת החסידות, מובטח להם שלא ימותו מן הזקנה עד שיהיו כן!...

Wow from the Alte Rebbe?? ברוך שכוונתי!!

[Yehuda57]

This goes back to the circular reasoning.

You're missing one teeny tiny component of how it became the minhag

[Ver hut gazugt]

Without getting caught up in theological problems virtually any non Lubavitch has with this, it is only a justification if that pain is actually actively being felt. The Rebbe had high expectations. Can everyone honestly say they acutely feel this pain? If they cannot, there is a serious problem. FWIU the Rebbe agreed that if it's not felt its isnt a ptur.
So I've been questioning if it's adequately universally felt. The claim is yes.
However even if it is it doesn't seem to halichkly answer the bracha in the rain issue.

I am not sure if the bracha in the rain was brought up. But the question of sleeping in the sukkah was brought up to R’ Chaim Volozhener…

When I was younger a yshivish boy came over to me and asked why I do t sleep in the sukkah ( and not in the nice way), I had no idea of the sugyah at that time but what struck me was he did not either sleep in the sukkah either because Brooklyn is a makom sakana.

[imayid2]

I am not sure if the bracha in the rain was brought up. But the question of sleeping in the sukkah was brought up to R’ Chaim Volozhener…

Where can I find that?

[imayid2]

Let's circle back to the Sukkos discussion now about the pain of missing a mitzva?

Btw I just received this from a member of Chabad who is a noted תלמיד חכם and an אב בית דין.

שלום וברכה וכט"ס,
קיבלתי את מכתבו, ואני מבין היטב את השאלה, ותורה היא וללמוד אנו צריכים.
בקובץ היכל הבעש"ט גליון לט-מ היו שני מאמרים מקיפים בנושא אליבא דהלכתא, נכתב על ידי הרה"ג ר' חיים ראפופורט מלונדון.
כדאי לעיין שם ותרווה נחת.
בברכה

I had seen those articles and skimmed them briefly. Plan on going through them better when I get a chance. I am a fan of R. Rapoport who is a tremendous תלמיד חכם who has a remarkable way of explaining things in a way that I can understand even if I cannot agree. I have reached out to him as well to see if he has written up on this specific subject, those other ones are focused on sleeping in the sukka. I understand the correlation but would love to see him address it directly. I heard it isn't as easy to get a response from him though.

[MeirS]

member of Chabad

I don't think Chabad has members but this conversation can probably go back into the offer thread...