Author Topic: Yeshiva Education Models?  (Read 1789 times)

Offline Yonah

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Yeshiva Education Models?
« on: September 12, 2019, 12:54:56 PM »
Just spinning this out of some of the education discussion on the 9/11 threads (this one in particular- https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=107667.0), as well as some of the recent discussion about education standards. In my head, I think that there are about 5 different Jewish educational models here in the US, and I am curious if I am missing nuance and/or how popular each of these is.

Obviously, I can't say any of these is correct, but figured I'd lay them out here and ask people for insight. In my mind the 5 models are (in now particular order):
- Chasidish / Heimish Yeshiva Model
- Yeshivish Model
- Modern Day Schools
- Hebrew Language Charter Schools +
- Talmud Torah

- Chasidish /Heimish model - Torah studies are the ikkar (main focus), and we spend almost all of the day on them. We do teach basic math and english skills to fulfill our state requirements, but not much more. They aren't necessarily taught by certified teachers. We don't expect our students to go to college at all.

- Yeshivish Model - Torah studies are the ikkar, but we also feel that our students should get a quality secular education in the limited time we've set aside for it. We learn torah most of the morning and secular studies start in the afternoon. One of the reasons for this is that we hire qualified teachers from public school who want to moonlight by teaching another class or two. It's doubly beneficial, because we pay them less money and our kids get a quality secular education. While we do expect many of our graduates to ultimately go to college (preferably at night or in a yeshiva-centric program), we expect them to do so after a few post-HS years in the Bais Medrash.

- Day School Model - Both secular and Torah studies are important. We have full-time qualified teachers for both, and our schedule is relatively balanced between religious and secular. We expect our kids to go to college (after 1-2 years in Israel) and we prepare them for it. This obviously is both Orthodox and other denominations (Conservative and non-denominational) as well.

- Charter school model - in order to get around Church vs state issues in the US we've created a Hebrew language charter school. The school teaches everything in hebrew but we can't teach any religious studies. We can teach Israeli and Jewish history from a secular context. For the Shomer Shabbat members of our community, there are organizations that run after school torah learning programs for our students.

- Talmud Torah -our kids go to regular-public schools, and we just have after school programming for them to learn about Judaism.


Thoughts? did I miss something? I will caveat to say that I have limited experience/knowledge of Bais Yaakov, but I imagine that many would fall into one of these categories?


Offline hvaces42

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Re: Yeshiva Education Models?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2019, 01:37:22 PM »
Name Yeshivos as examples. There are so many sub-categories that its virtually impossible to fit every yeshiva into your categories.
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Re: Yeshiva Education Models?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2019, 02:08:58 PM »
My yeshiva was closest to your chasidish/heimish model although I would classify it as a yeshivish school.
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Offline Yonah

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Re: Yeshiva Education Models?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2019, 02:29:11 PM »
Name Yeshivos as examples. There are so many sub-categories that its virtually impossible to fit every yeshiva into your categories.

Sure:
- Chasidish Model (which I probably know the least about): Bobov, Beltz, Satmar, etc.
- Yeshivish Model - Torah Vodaas, Torah Temima, Chaim Berlin, Virtually all Chofetz Chaims
- Day School Model - Yeshiva of Flatbush, HAFTR, Yavneh, Moriah, Noam, Maimondies in Boston, Hillel in Boca - non-denominational schools like those associated with the now defunct solomon schechter association (not all have Solomon Schechter in the name)
- Charter School model - the Ben Gamla academies in Florida (although I think that some of the momentum from the Frum Community has waned)
- Talmud Torah model - nowadays it's mostly confined to Reform and Conservative shuls and Chabad who does it in a Kiruv manner.

I know that's pretty broad, and still doesn't cover all of the bases. For example, AFAIK - Darchei in Far Rockaway is probably one of the largest K-12 schools in the US, but I am not sure where it fits on the spectrum.

Offline Yonah

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Re: Yeshiva Education Models?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2019, 02:35:45 PM »
My yeshiva was closest to your chasidish/heimish model although I would classify it as a yeshivish school.

Yeshivish is broad. I went to YTV growing up - I like to think of that as Yeshivish (Rav Pam Z"L, Rav Kamenitsky Z"L). From 5th grade onward all of our Secular studies teachers taught in public school in the mornings. Our Secular Principal was also a Public School principal. Me and my two brothers hopped around in HS, but all of us spent at least 1 year in a Chofetz Chaim school - similar deal (senior year there was less secular class time, but you could do independent study AP classes). Judging from friends who went to Torah Temimah and Chaim Berlin, they had similar experiences.

I can only imagine that the landscape has changed quite a bit in the last couple of decades or so.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Yeshiva Education Models?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2019, 02:39:15 PM »
Will give this a shot...

Sure:
- Chasidish Model (which I probably know the least about): Bobov, Beltz, Satmar, etc. These do not teach what your criteria say they do. I think you mean more like Chasan Sofer, Veretzky, Gan Yisrael in Brooklyn...the "Heimish-lite" yeshivas
- Yeshivish Model - Torah Vodaas, Torah Temima, Chaim Berlin, Virtually all Chofetz Chaims Why doesnt Darchei fit in here? Also the days of these yeshivas  (besides Chofetz Chaims) allowing or even countenancing college are over. Lander should fit in here as well.
- Day School Model - Yeshiva of Flatbush, HAFTR, Yavneh, Moriah, Noam, Maimondies in Boston, Hillel in Boca - non-denominational schools like those associated with the now defunct solomon schechter association (not all have Solomon Schechter in the name)
- Charter School model - the Ben Gamla academies in Florida (although I think that some of the momentum from the Frum Community has waned)
- Talmud Torah model - nowadays it's mostly confined to Reform and Conservative shuls and Chabad who does it in a Kiruv manner.

I know that's pretty broad, and still doesn't cover all of the bases. For example, AFAIK - Darchei in Far Rockaway is probably one of the largest K-12 schools in the US, but I am not sure where it fits on the spectrum.
No idea about the other three models.
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Re: Yeshiva Education Models?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2019, 02:39:39 PM »
- Chasidish /Heimish model - Torah studies are the ikkar (main focus), and we spend almost all of the day on them. We do teach basic math and english skills to fulfill our state requirements, but not much more. They aren't necessarily taught by certified teachers. We don't expect our students to go to college at all.
Don't think all of these teach even basic math/English.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Yeshiva Education Models?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2019, 02:40:45 PM »
Yeshivish is broad. I went to YTV growing up - I like to think of that as Yeshivish (Rav Pam Z"L, Rav Kamenitsky Z"L). From 5th grade onward all of our Secular studies teachers taught in public school in the mornings. Our Secular Principal was also a Public School principal. Me and my two brothers hopped around in HS, but all of us spent at least 1 year in a Chofetz Chaim school - similar deal (senior year there was less secular class time, but you could do independent study AP classes). Judging from friends who went to Torah Temimah and Chaim Berlin, they had similar experiences.

I can only imagine that the landscape has changed quite a bit in the last couple of decades or so.
Oh and how. I went to YCS and all my friends went to YTV after Elementary school.
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Offline yosefsv

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Re: Yeshiva Education Models?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2019, 02:48:45 PM »
Don't think all of these teach even basic math/English.
These do not teach what your criteria say they do.

+1 from 10th grade (Yeshiva) and up.
I went to a very chasidish/heimish school, and we did learn basic English, Math, History, etc. from 3rd to 9th grades
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Yeshiva Education Models?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2019, 02:53:20 PM »

+1 from 10th grade (Yeshiva) and up.
I went to a very chasidish/heimish school, and we did learn basic English, Math, History, etc. from 3rd to 9th grades
Which yeshiva? Basic English and Math should start in 1st Grade...or earlier
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Offline yosefsv

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Re: Yeshiva Education Models?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2019, 02:56:41 PM »
Which yeshiva? Basic English and Math should start in 1st Grade...or earlier
chasidish
Basic English and Math should start in 1st Grade...or earlier
You may be right, but that's how it is in Satmer, Belz, Pupa, Skver etc.
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Re: Yeshiva Education Models?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2019, 03:04:52 PM »
Which yeshiva? Basic English and Math should start in 1st Grade...or earlier
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Offline Yonah

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Re: Yeshiva Education Models?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2019, 03:07:47 PM »

... Why doesnt Darchei fit in here?

I know nothing about Darchei - except for its size. I moved out of the yeshivish world a long time ago, and I don't have any friends who went there or who's kids go there now- so I don't know.

... Also the days of these yeshivas  (besides Chofetz Chaims) allowing or even countenancing college are over.

My youngest brother is much closer in age to my kids than I am, and still squarely in the yeshivish camp. After graduating Chofetz Chaim and 3 years in Israel, he wanted to learn in YTV and go to college at night, and they told him he'd need to learn there full time for a couple of years before they'd consider that. So he went to a different yeshiva that allowed it.

When you say not countenancing it - are you suggesting that they don't even allow Touro/Brooklyn at night? Do they confer BTLs for guys who want to go to Law School, etc.?


... Lander should fit in here as well...

It's not clear to me where you think Lander fits in here - in the Yeshivish model?

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Yeshiva Education Models?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2019, 03:57:58 PM »
Darchei is the old YTV basically. Most yeshivas in NY will not allow college period. The days of Touro Flatbush Night where you went to yeshiva all day and had the same classmates at night in college are over. Machon L'parnasah is where thats at today.

Ohr Yitzchok (Rabbis Pinchas and Shmuel Wallerstein's yeshiva) is the only one that has a program for college guys where they're in college by day and learn at night.

Lander's today is a top yeshivish yeshiva. Obviously with the college component. 
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Offline mercaz1

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Re: Yeshiva Education Models?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2019, 04:10:03 PM »
Landers is just a more religious/yeshivish YU

I think most of the YTV/Darchei still allow Touro at night and for sure they allow online programs and FDU