How do you understand the story of Lavan and Rochel?

[ExGingi]

When Lavan encountered Rochel, was she on top of a camel or not?

I have always pictured the story one way, and discovered this weekend that others picture it differently. IMHO it is unclear from the Psukim, and arguments can be made either way (as well as other details of the story, such as when did she hide the idols, upon leaving חרן or only when Lavan caught up?)

Please participate in the poll (which I hope to add) and offer your arguments in this thread.

I am not offering my reasoning or arguments for either side at this point, as I don't want to influence other people's votes. After we get some responses I might offer some arguments both ways.

[CountValentine]

To answer the question, I don't understand. 

[TimT]

To answer the question, I don't understand. 

That’s because it’s not popcorn material

[CountValentine]

That’s because it’s not popcorn material

That has nothing to do with it.

[ExGingi]

To answer the question, I don't understand. 

Did you read Genesis 31:34 and not understand, or did you not even bother reading it?

[EliJelly]

Kudos for promoting Parsha discussion, It's Parshas וישלח already, so for me it's like missed the boat..
I can add though another question for this week's Parsha, How come Isov gathered an army to battle and kill Yakov and his family, while Yitchak was still alive, when initially he said יקרבו ימי אבל אבי ואהרגה את יעקב אחי?

[MeirS]

My question is who is the good guy and who is the bad guy in the story?
Was Rochel supposed to do what she did?
Was Yaakov supposed to say what he did which (according to the midrash) led to Rochels untimely passing?

[CountValentine]

Did you read Genesis 31:34 and not understand, or did you not even bother reading it?

Ok fine. The answer is tent.

[ExGingi]

Kudos for promoting Parsha discussion, It's Parshas וישלח already, so for me it's like missed the boat..
I can add though another question for this week's Parsha, How come Isov gathered an army to battle and kill Yakov and his family, while Yitchak was still alive, when initially he said יקרבו ימי אבל אבי ואהרגה את יעקב אחי?

This question only came up on Shabbos, as it was the first time I realized that some people understood the story differently than I did. And since I don't post on Shabbos, this had to wait for today. You are welcome to create your own thread for your פרשת וישלח question(s).

The most bizzare thing I've found from asking this question, is people not wanting to answer. What in the world are they afraid of or care? I'm not passing any judgment, just curious to find out how people imagined/understood the story at first glance, and then how they understand it after delving a little deeper.

[ExGingi]

My question is who is the good guy and who is the bad guy in the story?

Since when are there good guys and bad guys? How can you even insinuate such a notion after we just read a week ago about the Yitzchok and Esav? (and will read further this week about Esav).

Now would you please care to answer my question.

[MeirS]

Without delving deeply I understood that she sat on the saddle in the tent not on a camel

[CountValentine]

How about your answer without supporting arguments? @ExGingi

[CountValentine]

Without delving deeply I understood that she sat on the saddle in the tent not on a camel

So you voted with me? 

[MeirS]

So you voted with me? 

I'm on Tapa so I can't (see the) vote

[CountValentine]

I'm on Tapa so I can't (see the) vote

It is a landside so far 2-1. I am one of the 2.

[whYME]

If you would've randomly asked me yesterday where Rochel was sitting I would've said on the camel. You seem to have awakened something in my memory and now I'm thinking it was in the tent.

[ExGingi]

Interesting analysis here (not sure if anything unkosher there, as it is from a University Professor rather than any Rabbinic authority): http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/tanach/tora/nashim.htm

לא ייתכן אפוא שבמצב נידתה תירצה רחל את אי-יכולה לקום, ולא לכך כיוון הכתוב. אלא איזוהי 'דרך נשים' שבגללה מנועה הייתה מלקום? הווי אומר, זה היריון. ואין צריך לומר - גם היריון דרך נשים הוא. ואכן, היריון קשה יש בו לעתים עיכוב ומניעה, וכל שומע עשוי להשתכנע באמיתות הגורם הזה. אם כך נפרש סרו כל הקושיות.

א. יש ויש צידוק לאישה, אשר כרסה בין שיניה, שלא תקום ממקומה, ובייחוד ממקומה על כר הגמל. שהרי כך הוא סדר הדברים העולה מן הכתובים: כשחיפש לבן את התרפים באוהל, ישבה רחל על כר הגמל הנתון במקומו על דבשתו של הגמל מחוץ לאוהל, והוא מישש 'את כל האהל ולא מצא' (לא, לד). רק אחרי שסיים לבן מלאכתו באוהל פנימה, רק אז אומרת לו רחל את דברה ממרומי הגמל. ולקום מעל הגמל - בכך יש קושי גדול לאישה הרה.

[CountValentine]

Someone care to give the reasoning why they think she would be sitting on the camel?

[CountValentine]

Interesting analysis here (not sure if anything unkosher there, as it is from a University Professor rather than any Rabbinic authority): http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/tanach/tora/nashim.htm

You want me to read that to?   

[ExGingi]

You want me to read that to?   

I guess next time we need to keep you in 770 a little longer, so that you can emerge with the ability to read that.   

Here is the Google Translate version with all its glory for everyone to enjoy:

It is therefore not possible that in her inclined state, Rachel would want to be unable to rise, and that is not the direction of the writing. But what kind of 'women's way' that was prevented from coming? I mean, it's a pregnancy. And needless to say - pregnancy through women is too. Indeed, it is sometimes difficult to delay and prevent pregnancy, and any hearer may be convinced of the truth of this cause. If that is the case, then all the difficulties are removed.

A. There is a justification for a woman, who has stuck between her teeth, who will not rise from her place, and especially from her place on the camel's pillow. After all, this is the order of things that emerges from the Scriptures: As Ben searched for the cure in the tent, Rachel sat on the camel's pillow in its place on the camel's hump outside the tent, and he felt 'all the tent and couldn't find it' (no, LED). Only after he has finished his craft in a tent inside, only then does Rachel tell him her words from the camel's high. And get up over the camel - there is great difficulty for a pregnant woman.

And here's my translation of the text:

It is therefore impossible that Rochel used her menstrual period as an excuse for not rising, and that isn't what the verse intended. However, what is the 'woman's occurrence' which prevents her from rising? One must say that it was pregnancy. And needless to say - pregnancy too is a 'woman's occurrence'. And indeed, a hard pregnancy can often bring upon difficulty and hinderance. And anyone hearing [such an excuse] might be convinced of its veracity. If we explain it this way, all questions are eliminated

A. There is a justification for a woman, who is in late stage pregnancy, not to rise, especially if she is situated on top of the camel's saddle. This is the apparent order of events evident from the verses: When Lavan searched for the idols in the tent, Rochel was sitting on the saddle which was mounted atop the camel's hump outside the tent, and he searched 'the entire tent and didn't find' (31:34). Only after Lavan finished doing his job inside the tent, only then does Rochel tell him her piece from her perch on top of the camel. And to get up from on top of the camel - that presents a significant hardship for a pregnant woman.


ETA: Next poll would be which gem out of the Google translation did you find the funniest? (some options: "no, LED"; "a woman, who has stuck between her teeth", or mention your own favorite)