Author Topic: Israel's good friend Obama...  (Read 130621 times)

Offline CZ60

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #580 on: December 29, 2016, 03:29:34 PM »
This is a letter from Obama in 2010:

"Thank you for expressing your concerns to my staff about our policies in the Middle East. Since we have known each other for a long time, I am sure you can distinguish between the noise and distortion about my views that have appeared recently, and the actual approach of my Administration toward the Middle East. For over 60 years, American Presidents have believed that pursuing peace between Arabs and Israelis is in the national security interests of the United States. I share that understanding and have made the pursuit of peace, including a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a top priority from my first day in office. I am deeply committed to fulfilling the important role the United States must play for peace to be realized, but I also recognize that in order for any agreement to endure,peace cannot be imposed from the outside; it must be negotiated directly by the leaders who are required to make the hard choices and compromises that take on history. We are determined to help them, particularly because the status quo does not serve the interests of Israel, the Palestinians, or the United States. As for our relations with Israel, let me be very clear: we have a special relationship with Israel and that will not change. Our countries are bound together by shared values, deep and interwoven connections, and mutual interests. Many of the same forces that threaten Israel also threaten the United States and our efforts to secure peace and stability in the Middle East. Our alliance with Israel serves our national security interests. As we continue to strive for lasting peace agreements between Israel, the Palestinians, and Israelís neighbors, all sides should understand that our commitment to Israelís security is unshakeable and that no wedge will be driven between us. We will have our differences, but when we do, we will work to resolve them as close allies. I look forward to continuing our work together on behalf of peace.

I accept the letter as having been written in good faith. I cannot state that it restores my absolute good faith in the President. The unique trust that I and so many others, Christians and Jews, placed in him on the issue of supporting our close alliance with the Jewish state does not exist to the same extent, so I will look more to his actions than to his words. However, his letter is a start that I hope will be followed by concrete deeds."

Seems like a lot has changed in 6 years.

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #581 on: December 29, 2016, 03:29:59 PM »
Get real here. It has pro-Israel written all over it.

You didn't quote my entire comment, most notably its conclusion.

I also think you are downplaying the nature of "stimulus" the aid provides to the US. Would you like links to read up on it?

Offline JTZ

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #582 on: December 29, 2016, 03:35:12 PM »
His analogies are to point out the silliness in connecting two facts as one being caused by the other. And you can say what you want but that post definitely implies that continuing to build settlements is insane because it has continuously not resulted in peace (I am not going to even say that it implies that building more settlements has impeded peace but one can easily argue that your post implied that too).  So to make that point yuneeq gave two other "facts" that did not result in peace. They are as meaningful as the one you gave, which is to say not meaningful at all.
I am not sure why I posted this because I am pretty sure you are aware of all this but still felt it needed to be said. You have often said that when you have good arguments and you choose to argue bad arguments then you take away from the good points that you can make. I think your above post can benefit from that lesson.
Many believe as I do that building more settlements hurts the peace process. That does not mean stopping the settlements and you will have peace but it will help. If you can explain how pizza helps/hurts the peace process I will agree with you.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline CZ60

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #583 on: December 29, 2016, 03:35:23 PM »
THAN YOU for the one word answer!!!

I sure hope he is anti-Bibi after the constant anti-US attacks from him. Bibi has Israel's best interest in mind and BO has the US's.

Ah. So now you must explain to us how that resolution was in the US interests. And then once you do that, explain why the US ABSTAINED instead of voting in favor of the resolution, to make it unanimous 15-0, and of course, to preserve American interests. Everything Kerry has been saying the last few days is indicative of someone who voted in favor of the resolution.

Abstaining is a "woos" move and absolutely shows who was really behind it. Don't kid yourself.

Offline JTZ

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #584 on: December 29, 2016, 03:36:48 PM »
I also think you are downplaying the nature of "stimulus" the aid provides to the US. Would you like links to read up on it?
No need to provide links. Lets just get BO to do this for every country. Will that balance the budget?  :)
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline springles

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #585 on: December 29, 2016, 03:39:55 PM »
Many believe as I do that building more settlements hurts the peace process. That does not mean stopping the settlements and you will have peace but it will help. If you can explain how pizza helps/hurts the peace process I will agree with you.
But Israel has stopping building settlements in the past and it didnt help at all, so I think both pizza and the settlements have the same effect on peace.

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #586 on: December 29, 2016, 03:41:39 PM »
THAN YOU for the one word answer!!!

I sure hope he is anti-Bibi after the constant anti-US attacks from him. Bibi has Israel's best interest in mind and BO has the US's.
How would vetoing it be a contradiction to US interests?

Offline CS1

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #587 on: December 29, 2016, 03:42:06 PM »
Many believe as I do that building more settlements hurts the peace process. That does not mean stopping the settlements and you will have peace but it will help. If you can explain how pizza helps/hurts the peace process I will agree with you.

every time we stopped building and/or gave land, then the terrorism got worse and created a mess of the peace process.

Giving has the opposite affect. They want it all: Tel Aviv, Ashdod, Netanya, etc...
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Offline CZ60

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #588 on: December 29, 2016, 03:42:22 PM »
Many believe as I do that building more settlements hurts the peace process. That does not mean stopping the settlements and you will have peace but it will help. If you can explain how pizza helps/hurts the peace process I will agree with you.

Well we've shown that stopping settlement building for 10 months couldn't even bring Abbas to the table so I'm not really sure why you believe that stopping the settlements will help the peace process. It's all fine and dandy to say "settlements and peace" in the same sentence but when the other side is out to destroy you, literally, then I think it should be "violence/incitement and peace" in the same sentence WAY more often than settlements and peace.

If Abbas were to agree to stop with the incitement and promote peace with the Israelis, the Israelis would kiss his feet and give him half of Jerusalem (regardless of the current rhetoric). But you know what else would happen? Abbas would be dead if he ever promoted peace.

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #589 on: December 29, 2016, 03:42:50 PM »
Many believe as I do that building more settlements hurts the peace process. That does not mean stopping the settlements and you will have peace but it will help. If you can explain how pizza helps/hurts the peace process I will agree with you.

That is a fair claim, but please answer these (more than one word is ok):

1) When there were settlement freezes, it not only did not lead to peace, but Abbas refused to even negotiate. Would you include settlement freezes in your definition of insanity?
2) Israel has made land concessions, both bilaterally and unilaterally. In neither instance did it advance peace. Would you include land concessions in your aforementioned definition of insanity?
3) Kerry gave a long speech, the crux being that settlement expansion is obstructing peace. He laid out a vision for the future. Palestinians have rejected it outright. If a settlement freeze won't resume negotiations, in what way is settlement expansion impeding the peace process?

Offline springles

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #590 on: December 29, 2016, 03:44:09 PM »
Many believe as I do that building more settlements hurts the peace process. That does not mean stopping the settlements and you will have peace but it will help. If you can explain how pizza helps/hurts the peace process I will agree with you.
Here is a yes or no question for you.
Do you believe that if Israel stopped building settlements, in fact, moved out of all existing settlements and went to pre 1967 borders, there would be peace?

Offline JTZ

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #591 on: December 29, 2016, 03:52:25 PM »
Will be back in a few so feel free to reload.  :)
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #592 on: December 29, 2016, 04:43:21 PM »
Will be back in a few so feel free to reload.  :)

I know you are coming from.a very different perspective than most people here, so please answer this;

How does not vetoing (and encouraging behind the scenes) this resolution further US interests?

Before you answer, think about this; is it in America's interest to stand by their allies?

Offline aygart

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #593 on: December 29, 2016, 05:01:00 PM »
Will be back in a few so feel free to reload.  :)
Perfect it will give you time to answer all the questions with a clear head.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline JTZ

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #594 on: December 29, 2016, 05:30:11 PM »
Here is a yes or no question for you.
Do you believe that if Israel stopped building settlements, in fact, moved out of all existing settlements and went to pre 1967 borders, there would be peace?
No. If you want to know why I will be happy to say.  :)
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline JTZ

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #595 on: December 29, 2016, 05:35:59 PM »
I know you are coming from.a very different perspective than most people here, so please answer this;

How does not vetoing (and encouraging behind the scenes) this resolution further US interests?

Before you answer, think about this; is it in America's interest to stand by their allies?
Going in this order 1-3-2
1 - You think.  :)
3 - Yes but not blindly
2 - Need to leave out behind the scenes part until the Israel rep produces the "iron clad" evidence he claims to have. Otherwise known as put up or shut up. IMHO BO believes that a veto would be a green light to build more settlements that he feels hinders the peace process. It is in the US interest to have peace.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline aygart

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #596 on: December 29, 2016, 05:58:06 PM »
Going in this order 1-3-2
1 - You think.  :)
3 - Yes but not blindly
2 - Need to leave out behind the scenes part until the Israel rep produces the "iron clad" evidence he claims to have. Otherwise known as put up or shut up. IMHO BO believes that a veto would be a green light to build more settlements that he feels hinders the peace process. It is in the US interest to have peace.
The behind the scenes is backed up by egyptian leaks. Had the resolution been a simple condemnation and had not beed worded to make 67 borders that would be a good answer.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline JTZ

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #597 on: December 29, 2016, 05:59:58 PM »
The behind the scenes is backed up by egyptian leaks.
That's the "iron clad" information?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline aygart

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #598 on: December 29, 2016, 06:02:04 PM »
That's the "iron clad" information?
No, but it is enough to not leave it out IMHO. I can understand their not revealing full intelligence.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline JTZ

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Re: Israel's good friend Obama...
« Reply #599 on: December 29, 2016, 06:04:20 PM »
No, but it is enough to not leave it out IMHO. I can understand their not revealing full intelligence.
Until they produce the "iron clad" it is all he said she said. With that being the case I will go with the US or a foreign governments version. How about you?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(