Its Open Season on Jews

[CountValentine]

I wouldn't call it protection, it's more like a wake-up call

This makes it sound like a necessity. Even when I disagree strongly I can usually see the other side. Not seeing it here.

[ltttc]

I understand why this makes sense to you. Do you understand why those who don't follow the Torah find this (not sure what word to use as not to offend)?

It is almost impossible to fully understand others' religion. I remember reading a National Geographic article about some religious ceremony held in an Indian village where it was a privilege to have swords thrown on you to atone for the villagers' sins. I will spare you the details, but it was quite gory. Why in the world would I want to be brutally hurt and why I would intentionally hurt s/o in that way is beyond. But then again, it's not my religion. I'm sure those villagers have a completely different spin on it.

[chinagel]

I understand why this makes sense to you. Do you understand why those who don't follow the Torah find this (not sure what word to use as not to offend)?

I don't find these questions offensive. I don't see the relevance of them having an issue with it. I do believe @Yonah considers himself religious. If not, then I would not have said my point.

[CountValentine]

It is almost impossible to fully understand others' religion.

Agree 100% and that is where you use what is common sense. Yes common sense varies but for the most part it is a good indication.

[ltttc]

This makes it sound like a necessity. Even when I disagree strongly I can usually see the other side. Not seeing it here.

I'm afraid that might be entirely your issue. I mean, what would it take for you to justify this a necessity?

[Yonah]

This makes it sound like a necessity. Even when I disagree strongly I can usually see the other side. Not seeing it here.

What would be the other side? That there is no rational or justifiable reason for the holocaust?

[ltttc]

What would be the other side? That there is no rational or justifiable reason for the holocaust?

I guess you're g-d now

[skyguy918]

Forgive me if I did this in a disrespectful manner, I also didn't read through the middle sentences on the gif - his message is clear, but  I still however, have to respectfully disagree with R' Miller and all those who agree with him that the holocaust was brought upon Judaism for interacting with the non-jewish world. I also disagree with him on his views about Zionism, and probably a lot more things.

What would be the other side? That there is no rational or justifiable reason for the holocaust?

It seems like you've articulated your objection to the R' Miller 'article', but not stated your opinion. Care to do so?

[Yonah]

I do believe @Yonah considers himself religious

I most certainly do

[CountValentine]

What would be the other side? That there is no rational or justifiable reason for the holocaust?

Not the other side, the only side.
Talk about total ignorance. Am I that far gone? Jews believe there is a rational/justifiable reason for the Holocaust?

[ltttc]

Not the other side, the only side.
Talk about total ignorance. Am I that far gone? Jews believe there is a rational/justifiable reason for the Holocaust?

Jews believe they are not g-d and while there is no human justifiable reason, we believe we cannot fully understand everything. A concept very difficult to process.

[Yonah]

It seems like you've articulated your objection to the R' Miller 'article', but not stated your opinion. Care to do so?

I believe that there are certain things hashem puts forth on this earth that just can't be understood or rationalized.

Going along the logic that the holocaust was caused by assimilation, I don't think we've learned our lesson. In as much as we've seen stories of people who's neshama re-sparked because of their treatment in the holocaust, there are plenty more who've completely abandoned judaism because of it. (IINM, in this year's kinus video featured a young man in europe who was raised christian, only to find out by his grandmother on her deathbed that she had been hiding her judaism for so many years - yes her grandson is slowly coming back to yiddishkeit, but that's not the point). With that rationale, I can understand why gedolim were allowed to be killed - many in cruel ways - for their culpability in not trying to be mekarev people - but millions of jews in the shtetl? Some who were frum, and knew no assimilated jews because they were confined to their little daled amos?

I've had the misfortune of losing my parents at a young age. My parents were good, g-d fearing people. They weren't blessed with wealth so they did their chesed the old-fashioned way, with their own two hands. They did g-d's work in many ways. There were moments of doubt where I thought that it was their sins or our sins that caused them to die so young - but I couldn't allow myself to think that way. Instead I focused on something different. The bracha of being alive. Both of my parents had long-term health issues that could have easily killed them at much younger ages. Hashem had different plans, he allowed them to live, raise and marry off most of their children before they passed. Every day was a blessing.

I think of the holocaust in a similar vane. Why did Chaim Yankel die in Auschwitz, and not his brother Moshe? Why were all of my grandparents zoche (worthu) to flee europe before the real trouble began, while many of their relatives did not? Why are my wife's grandparents among the few of their family members to survive?

I can only begin to imagine the complex calculus going on in heaven during that time. It's hashem's to know and not ours to find out, because it's far more complicated than we can imagine.

 

[CountValentine]

Jews believe they are not g-d and while there is no human justifiable reason, we believe we cannot fully understand everything. A concept very difficult to process.

I actually can process it now that you mentioned it. This is the difference how we look at free will.
Lets see if I have this right. You believe everything happens for a reason. G-d has a hand in everything that does happen. So even bad things that we don't understand why they happen did happen for a reason. Pretty close?

[ltttc]

I actually can process it now that you mentioned it. This is the difference how we look at free will.
Lets see if I have this right. You believe everything happens for a reason. G-d has a hand in everything that does happen. So even bad things that we don't understand why they happen did happen for a reason. Pretty close?

Yup! You've got a good head!

[CountValentine]

Yup! You've got a good head!

Can we test your head? 
Free will to Catholics. Everything happens because of the choices we make. While G-d knows the choices we will make G-d does not influence them. The Holocausts happened because of the choices evil human beings made.
Not asking if you agree but can you understand that concept?

[whYME]

Can we test your head? 
Free will to Catholics. Everything happens because of the choices we make. While G-d knows the choices we will make G-d does not influence them. The Holocausts happened because of the choices evil human beings made.
Not asking if you agree but can you understand that concept?

no contradiction with

You believe everything happens for a reason. G-d has a hand in everything that does happen. So even bad things that we don't understand why they happen did happen for a reason.

(I'm not sure if you were suggesting there is.)
i.e. G-d decides who will die. people have the free choice whether or not to participate in carrying it out..

[yitzgar]

I believe that there are certain things hashem puts forth on this earth that just can't be understood or rationalized.

Going along the logic that the holocaust was caused by assimilation, I don't think we've learned our lesson. In as much as we've seen stories of people who's neshama re-sparked because of their treatment in the holocaust, there are plenty more who've completely abandoned judaism because of it. (IINM, in this year's kinus video featured a young man in europe who was raised christian, only to find out by his grandmother on her deathbed that she had been hiding her judaism for so many years - yes her grandson is slowly coming back to yiddishkeit, but that's not the point). With that rationale, I can understand why gedolim were allowed to be killed - many in cruel ways - for their culpability in not trying to be mekarev people - but millions of jews in the shtetl? Some who were frum, and knew no assimilated jews because they were confined to their little daled amos?

I've had the misfortune of losing my parents at a young age. My parents were good, g-d fearing people. They weren't blessed with wealth so they did their chesed the old-fashioned way, with their own two hands. They did g-d's work in many ways. There were moments of doubt where I thought that it was their sins or our sins that caused them to die so young - but I couldn't allow myself to think that way. Instead I focused on something different. The bracha of being alive. Both of my parents had long-term health issues that could have easily killed them at much younger ages. Hashem had different plans, he allowed them to live, raise and marry off most of their children before they passed. Every day was a blessing.

I think of the holocaust in a similar vane. Why did Chaim Yankel die in Auschwitz, and not his brother Moshe? Why were all of my grandparents zoche (worthu) to flee europe before the real trouble began, while many of their relatives did not? Why are my wife's grandparents among the few of their family members to survive?

I can only begin to imagine the complex calculus going on in heaven during that time. It's hashem's to know and not ours to find out, because it's far more complicated than we can imagine.

As you said it's very complex and we can't fathom the cheshbonos. But that doesn't mean that we can't realize (I am intentionally not using the word understand) one (or possibly multiple) causes while still accepting that we don't realize the other causes.
 In addition, I would just mention the inyan of things that happen to klal yisrael in general, and the fact that at the same time it is happening to each individual at the same time, and there is of course a cheshbon for both. My understanding is that Rabbi Miller is discussing the generality, but not the specific occurrences to the individuals.

[ltttc]

Can we test your head? 
Free will to Catholics. Everything happens because of the choices we make. While G-d knows the choices we will make G-d does not influence them. The Holocausts happened because of the choices evil human beings made.
Not asking if you agree but can you understand that concept?

Yes. I have read R' Miller's book which alludes to this concept somewhat.

[yitzgar]

To respond to CV questions, no it's not punishment, (and I'm sure it's more nuanced than what I will say, and you might want to wait for others such as aygarts response), but we believe that everyone will get repaid in the next world, for good or for bad, so even if it seems unjust in this world, it will even out in the end. The example of rumble strips earlier was a good one. In addition, it has more to do with assimilating and not staying on the proper path by way of said assimilation

[CountValentine]

i.e. G-d decides who will die. people have the free choice whether or not to participate in carrying it out..

You had to ask that one. 
Actually that one is above my pay grade. The simplest explanation I have heard is we only die in a physical sense. That is only one part of our journey.