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 My view on a statement like Rav Miller's is that whatever happens we are supposed to take a lesson out of it. When a tragedy happens and we say it may have been because of this that or the other thing it is simply to take a lesson from it for personal improvement. It is not to lay fault.
« Last edited by ltttc on January 09, 2020, 03:19:19 PM »

Author Topic: Its Open Season on Jews  (Read 203444 times)

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #720 on: January 09, 2020, 02:34:48 PM »
Catholic but then to really confuse things you need to throw in predestination. IMHO you can't have the two but we accept them. Probably things in Judaism that contradict each other?
Not sure what you mean by predestination.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #721 on: January 09, 2020, 02:36:52 PM »
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 02:40:06 PM by skyguy918 »

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #722 on: January 09, 2020, 02:37:55 PM »
GIYF
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination
I know what the word means. I am not sure exactly what CV meant

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #723 on: January 09, 2020, 02:39:15 PM »
Not sure what you mean by predestination.
A subject best left alone as I can't really can't explain it properly.
"Predestination can be understood in many different ways and considering how you define it we can say the simple answer is, yes, the Catholic Church teaches predestination as part of the doctrine of the Church."
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Offline Yonah

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #724 on: January 09, 2020, 02:39:49 PM »
I don't think anything you've written is a contradiction to R' Miller's points. As yitzgar points out, there's a big difference between taking out a lesson for klal yisroel as a whole and making cheshbonos about each individual. Of course there's a cheshbon for each individual as well - one that doesn't necessarily involve looking at it from purely a transgression/punishment lens.
As you said it's very complex and we can't fathom the cheshbonos. But that doesn't mean that we can't realize (I am intentionally not using the word understand) one (or possibly multiple) causes while still accepting that we don't realize the other causes.
 In addition, I would just mention the inyan of things that happen to klal yisrael in general, and the fact that at the same time it is happening to each individual at the same time, and there is of course a cheshbon for both. My understanding is that Rabbi Miller is discussing the generality, but not the specific occurrences to the individuals.

As I tried to answer this, I went back to the article in Boruch999 's original post to try to re-read the quote.

"We're too much involved in gentile ideas" - what does that mean exactly? To me it means that were too integrated with gentile society. We work at their companies, get involved in their government, and involve ourselves in their communities.

To me it means that hashem is causing anti-semitism on college campuses because frum jews shouldn't be there.  Or that because the Jews in Jersey City should have found a way to stay in williamsburg. Or, that because of Jews like me who live in less-frum areas, who are among the few frum jews in their companies, who navigate letting their kids play in little league without letting them play on shabbos are causing pain and suffering to other jews, because we all need a wake up call.

For my entire life, I've always been raised that the opposite was true. There are always goyim who will hate us because we are jews. There will always be other jews that hate us because of our level of observance. But if we act above board, and we teach them about our beliefs, they will have more respect for us and will understand us better. It's not a lowering of standards, but extending the richness of yiddishkeit to the world.

If I misinterpreted what is being said, please enlighten me?

(Also, R' Miller passed away over 20 years ago. The article posted quoted a speech from 1986 - clearly that speech wasn't talking about today's anti-semitism, and I wonder what the original context was?)

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #725 on: January 09, 2020, 02:40:22 PM »
A subject best left alone as I can't really explain it properly.
"Predestination can be understood in many different ways and considering how you define it we can say the simple answer is, yes, the Catholic Church teaches predestination as part of the doctrine of the Church."
Ok, so we'll leave it alone.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #726 on: January 09, 2020, 02:53:01 PM »
"We're too much involved in gentile ideas" - what does that mean exactly?
First of all, you should probably understand that this question will be answered very differently depending on where the respondent falls on the left wing to right wing/modern to traditionalist/etc spectrum. But even within the right wing/traditionalist view that I assume R' Miller was speaking from, the concept of gentile ideas is not the same as simply physically being among gentiles. A gentile idea for him might be a focus on materialism, it might be the hero worship and rabid fandom of various pop culture icons (including sports), it might be a loosening of certain areas of morality or a million other things. It doesn't have to mean never go near a gentile your whole life.

Offline ltttc

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #727 on: January 09, 2020, 02:53:12 PM »
As I tried to answer this, I went back to the article in Boruch999 's original post to try to re-read the quote.

"We're too much involved in gentile ideas" - what does that mean exactly? To me it means that were too integrated with gentile society. We work at their companies, get involved in their government, and involve ourselves in their communities.

To me it means that hashem is causing anti-semitism on college campuses because frum jews shouldn't be there.  Or that because the Jews in Jersey City should have found a way to stay in williamsburg. Or, that because of Jews like me who live in less-frum areas, who are among the few frum jews in their companies, who navigate letting their kids play in little league without letting them play on shabbos are causing pain and suffering to other jews, because we all need a wake up call.

For my entire life, I've always been raised that the opposite was true. There are always goyim who will hate us because we are jews. There will always be other jews that hate us because of our level of observance. But if we act above board, and we teach them about our beliefs, they will have more respect for us and will understand us better. It's not a lowering of standards, but extending the richness of yiddishkeit to the world.

If I misinterpreted what is being said, please enlighten me?

(Also, R' Miller passed away over 20 years ago. The article posted quoted a speech from 1986 - clearly that speech wasn't talking about today's anti-semitism, and I wonder what the original context was?)
You've got at least part of it right ;)

Offline aygart

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #728 on: January 09, 2020, 02:54:33 PM »
This has gotten so way beyond the scope of a forum like this one and beyond the extent that I feel comfortable discussing. This is a very complex subject and one in which I have not delved into adequately.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #729 on: January 09, 2020, 02:56:02 PM »
This has gotten so way beyond the scope of a forum like this one and beyond the extent that I feel comfortable discussing. This is a very complex subject and one in which I have not delved into adequately.
I was actually waiting for you to post this

Offline aygart

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #730 on: January 09, 2020, 02:59:17 PM »
I was actually waiting for you to post this
The first part is so obvious. The second part is something which I have said many times here that these types of discussions are not my specialty. My view on a statement like Rav Miller's is that whatever happens we are supposed to take a lesson out of it. When a tragedy happens and we say it may have been because of this that or the other thing it is simply to take a lesson from it for personal improvement. It is not to lay fault.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dawie

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #731 on: January 09, 2020, 03:00:10 PM »
The first part is so obvious. The second part is something which I have said many times here that these types of discussions are not my specialty. My view on a statement like Rav Miller's is that whatever happens we are supposed to take a lesson out of it. When a tragedy happens and we say it may have been because of this that or the other thing it is simply to take a lesson from it for personal improvement. It is not to lay fault.
from yesterdays Daf... well done

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #732 on: January 09, 2020, 03:02:40 PM »


When a tragedy happens and we say it may have been because of this that or the other thing it is simply to take a lesson from it for personal improvement. It is not to lay fault.

+ (I would add that one who reads Rabbi Miller's works can clearly understand that this is his intent).

Offline ltttc

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #733 on: January 09, 2020, 03:15:27 PM »
My view on a statement like Rav Miller's is that whatever happens we are supposed to take a lesson out of it. When a tragedy happens and we say it may have been because of this that or the other thing it is simply to take a lesson from it for personal improvement. It is not to lay fault.
Add this to the wiki!

Offline aygart

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #734 on: January 09, 2020, 03:18:01 PM »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ltttc

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #735 on: January 09, 2020, 03:20:19 PM »

Online CountValentine

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #736 on: January 09, 2020, 07:30:24 PM »
Do I get a HT for asking the questions?
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Offline 12HRS

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #737 on: January 09, 2020, 09:36:13 PM »
Do I get a HT for asking the questions?

Isn't that your cue to leave us?  :P

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #738 on: January 09, 2020, 09:37:32 PM »
Isn't that your cue to leave us?  :P
Long overdue no?
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Its Open Season on Jews
« Reply #739 on: January 09, 2020, 11:01:33 PM »
When you say "everything happens for a reason" it makes it sound like G-d had a hand in that happening.
Anti-Semitism happens because of evil people. It is not a sign from G-d to let you know you are going off the path.

Porque no los dos?
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