All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions

[RockaHocka]

An ice cream vendor which sells in their machine only soft serve ice cream, yes they sell other non kosher items in the store, but 2-3 machines designed for soft serve ice cream, can I assume these machines are used for that and nothing else? 
 This is the sign they showed me, after I asked if they have a certificate, (the cones, I saw in a box with a chof k where they were opening to take out of).
 About the ice cream would you guys eat it? (those who eat ou-d)?



 

Again 2016! (It clearly states that it's expired)

[myi]

Again 2016! (It clearly states that it's expired)

just realized that it says valid until 5/31/17.
 A month old.

[RockaHocka]

just realized that it says valid until 5/31/17.
 A month old.

Having worked for the OU a few years back, I would not rely on any expired documents as I know that there is no assumption of continuity with customers....at least on the clients I had dealt with.

[myi]

Having worked for the OU a few years back, I would not rely on any expired documents as I know that there is no assumption of continuity with customers....at least on the clients I had dealt with.

Thanks, like you say if it's expired stay away from it, if they really want those who only eat kosher to buy from them they would renew their hechsher, what I don't understand is if they care enough to get a hechsher why not make sure it's up to date? And if not caring forget about the jewish customers.
 Or is it because it's too much money to renew their hashgacha? 

[RockaHocka]

Thanks, like you say if it's expired stay away from it, if they really want those who only eat kosher to buy from them they would renew their hechsher, what I don't understand is if they care enough to get a hechsher why not make sure it's up to date? And if not caring forget about the jewish customers.
 Or is it because it's too much money to renew their hashgacha?

There can be so many reasons why they could have lost the hechsher but they definitely won't want you to believe so. It def is far from cheap to use the OU, though it's a business which offers lots of help and networking opportunities to small companies. Often a company will feel that they aren't gaining the price they pay and there can be a lag between leaving the OU and getting another hechsher. 

[username]

You are relying on the store owner as to the contents of the machine.
No Idea how the machines work (possible kovush issues??), but you may also be relying on the store owner that he never uses uncertified products.
Nowhere is the OU saying that the contents of his machines are kosher.

[RockaHocka]

You are relying on the store owner as to the contents of the machine.
No Idea how the machines work (possible kovush issues??), but you may also be relying on the store owner that he never uses uncertified products.
Nowhere is the OU saying that the contents of his machines are kosher.

Seems to me like it's a full hechsher on the items quoted. Aren't the soft serve items from his machines?

[aygart]

Seems to me like it's a full hechsher on the items quoted. Aren't the soft serve items from his machines?

It is a certificate for the mix that he is claiming to use. PLEASE tell the OU about it! They will probably send the store a cease and desist letter that he stop TRICKING people into thinking he has a hechsher when he does not.

[RockaHocka]

It is a certificate for the mix that he is claiming to use. PLEASE tell the OU about it! They will probably send the store a cease and desist letter that he stop TRICKING people into thinking he has a hechsher when he does not.

Is there another issue besides the expiration?

[aygart]

Is there another issue besides the expiration?

YES. That is NOT a hechsher on the store AT ALL but a hechsher on TURKEY HILL!

[username]

Seems to me like it's a full hechsher on the items quoted. Aren't the soft serve items from his machines?

The cert is for the items that are packaged and sealed as those brands, and bear an OU-D on the sealed package. So yes, if he tries to sell you a sealed mix with the OU on the wrapper, It would be OK.

Think of it as if you go to a party, and there are cookies on the platter, and someone who does not keep kosher shows you the OU cert for oreos.  True oreos are certified, but who says that these are oreos. and even if they are, are all the cookies on the platter oreos, and was there chazzer on the platter yesterday.

Rule is, once the package is opened, the OU does not apply, and you are relying on someone else.

[RockaHocka]

YES. That is NOT a hechsher on the store AT ALL but a hechsher on TURKEY HILL!

I've only dealt in manufacturing but I will pass this on to some people in industry who can confirm.

[moko]

An ice cream vendor which sells in their machine only soft serve ice cream, yes they sell other non kosher items in the store, but 2-3 machines designed for soft serve ice cream, can I assume these machines are used for that and nothing else? 
 This is the sign they showed me, after I asked if they have a certificate, (the cones, I saw in a box with a chof k where they were opening to take out of).
 About the ice cream would you guys eat it? (those who eat ou-d)?



 

are you looking for a worst case scenario?
Being in the industry, I would not purchase it on principle. (Also, since it's not chalav yisrael). If you can indeed verify that that is the ice cream that they are operating with at the present moment, then יש על מה לסמוך.
I have been asked by local community members to produce a list of ice creams from a manufacturing plant that we certify which can be purchased from non-certified ice cream parlor. I do the like doing so. it's a slippery slope.

[myi]

I've only dealt in manufacturing but I will pass this on to some people in industry who can confirm.

that means all the frum people I've seen eating the ice cream from city field and the Yankee stadium were eating the ice cream which had no hechsher even though the actuall product was certified kosher?
 Am I suppose to assume they put some non kosher ice cream in the machine? (the machine is made for soft serve ice and being that turkey hill ice cream is the only brand they use, I still have to suspect that it's not kosher?)
 How can one walk into a non kosher restaurant and order a coffee or even a non kosher coffee store and order a coffee the same argument you guys are using for the ice cream should be with any product.) I personally don't drink coffee, but curios for all those who do and those starbucks addicts who walk into the store which sells non kosher food, whether second cup or Tim Hortens!?   

[myi]

I bought one of these big bags of kettle cooked popcorn from the stand in hershypark, now before leaving I asked where's the hechsher so he showed me the window (as I knew from the previous years that it was kosher)
 The sign which has the signature of the rav who is the Mashgiach is dated back from 2016, so I asked him that question and now he's telling me that they didn't have a minute to change the sign (which I would take as they have no hechsher, what was funny he was telling me before all this the rabbi came and blessed all the machines so it's all kosher. )

 Would you eat it before contacting the Mashgiach?

After a day and most of the emploies being asked where the kosher certification is they got one now.

 Just curios, does that make the popcorn made yesterday ok to eat? (or since at the time of the making the store had no hechsher so you wouldn't be able to eat it? )

[aygart]

I've only dealt in manufacturing but I will pass this on to some people in industry who can confirm.

Imagine going in to a factory and them telling you we are kosher because we use this product with an LOC but there is no supervisioon on the factory itself.

[aygart]

that means all the frum people I've seen eating the ice cream from city field and the Yankee stadium were eating the ice cream which had no hechsher even though the actuall product was certified kosher?
 Am I suppose to assume they put some non kosher ice cream in the machine? (the machine is made for soft serve ice and being that turkey hill ice cream is the only brand they use, I still have to suspect that it's not kosher?)
 How can one walk into a non kosher restaurant and order a coffee or even a non kosher coffee store and order a coffee the same argument you guys are using for the ice cream should be with any product.) I personally don't drink coffee, but curios for all those who do and those starbucks addicts who walk into the store which sells non kosher food, whether second cup or Tim Hortens!?   

I cant answer about a specific case, but it is possible that these stands have direct involvement from the brand. They definitely have a very exclusive contract which is enforced by the brand. This is not the case for a random ice cream shop.

Coffee is different since unflavored coffee is inherently kosher.

[aygart]

After a day and most of the emploies being asked where the kosher certification is they got one now.

 Just curios, does that make the popcorn made yesterday ok to eat? (or since at the time of the making the store had no hechsher so you wouldn't be able to eat it? )

Looks to me like they had one but the letters didn't make their way around.

[aygart]

are you looking for a worst case scenario?
Being in the industry, I would not purchase it on principle. (Also, since it's not chalav yisrael). If you can indeed verify that that is the ice cream that they are operating with at the present moment, then יש על מה לסמוך.
I have been asked by local community members to produce a list of ice creams from a manufacturing plant that we certify which can be purchased from non-certified ice cream parlor. I do the like doing so. it's a slippery slope.

It is also a VERY important "if" which must be verified each time not only once.

[skyguy918]

I had the same issue with soft serve in the cafeteria at my office. The ice cream is kosher, but there's no one to certify that they never put anything else in the machine, or to ensure that it's not cleaned in a way that would treif it up.