All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions

[moko]

Thank you. Sure, in Mishnaic times, Chazal were properly concerned about mixing in camel's milk, as well as pig's milk. But are there many camels around in Western Europe these days, and particularly used for milk production? What other unkosher animals produce milk suitable for human consumption, and for wide-scale production on a reasonable economic basis? Wasn't R' Moshe's Heter based upon such an analysis of whether it was a reasonable concern based upon current economic realities?       

available in USA too

https://desertfarms.com
http://www.camelmilkcoop.com
https://dromedairy.us/blogs/blog/
http://www.camelmilkusa.com
www.camilkdairy.com/collections/camel-milk-products
http://www.camelmilkassociation.org
http://camelotcameldairy.com/index.php

[aygart]

Somehow I doubt any anything other than cow's milk is produced for commercial distribution in Europe, as well as the USA, but I don't really know enough about the metzios to argue, so we should each ask out LOR.
   
You refer to this: https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/rav-moshe-ztls-heter-of-cholov-stam-revisited/

Based on that article, my question now is: Is the OU's current P'sak and reasoning on Cholov Stam necessarily limited to the USA or may it also apply to Western Europe? The answer to that probably depends on the metzios in Western Europe.     

It can in theory apply anywhere depending on the metzius in each country.

[moko]

It can in theory apply anywhere depending on the metzius in each country.

the OU relies on Chalav Stam in India, Mexico, and Colombia

[DTM]

Wow, Moko, that is interesting about Camel milk being sold now in the USA. Ain Beis Medresh B’lee Chidush. I also see that the camel milk is $18 per pint, which would be $72 for a typical size half gallon (4 pint) container. At that price, Camel milk drinkers should be more concerned that it may be diluted with cows milk, than the other way around.

[DTM]

the OU relies on Chalav Stam in India, Mexico, and Colombia

Please post a source or link for this information. I am particularly interested in whether Cholov Stam in Western European countries might be similarly relied upon. Thanks

[username]

Wow, Moko, that is interesting about Camel milk being sold now in the USA. Ain Beis Medresh B’lee Chidush. I also see that the camel milk is $18 per pint, which would be $72 for a typical size half gallon (4 pint) container. At that price, Camel milk drinkers should be more concerned that it may be diluted with cows milk, than the other way around.

Try here it may be cheaper.
https://camelcamelcamel.com/search?sq=camel+milk

/jk

[avromie7]

Wow, Moko, that is interesting about Camel milk being sold now in the USA. Ain Beis Medresh B’lee Chidush. I also see that the camel milk is $18 per pint, which would be $72 for a typical size half gallon (4 pint) container. At that price, Camel milk drinkers should be more concerned that it may be diluted with cows milk, than the other way around.

It's not always about being cheaper, they may want to add it to increase the shelf life or make it taste better.

[DTM]

This list is posted online from Rav Moshe Ben Dahan, the Sefardi Chief Rabbi of Madrid. I don't speak Spanish, but, on page 6, Leche is milk, Vaca is cow, and Soja is Soy. The brand names listed seem to be major dairy companies in Spain:

http://www.cjmadrid.org/images/stories/pdfs/Julio2017/guia%20kashrut%20agosto2017.pdf

[moko]

Please post a source or link for this information. I am particularly interested in whether Cholov Stam in Western European countries might be similarly relied upon. Thanks

personal experience

[moko]

Just to add to the conversation, I just received an ingredient application for.... camels milk!!!
Upon rejection, the company asked for an explanation since our system considers milk a Group 1 ingredient (acceptable from any source...) While they understood the explanation, we are now changing our database to list it as "cow milk".
One of the companies I researched actually has a regular dairy operation which might be like davar tamei b'edro....

[aygart]

Just to add to the conversation, I just received an ingredient application for.... camels milk!!!
Upon rejection, the company asked for an explanation since our system considers milk a Group 1 ingredient

WOW!

[DTM]

Just to add to the conversation, I just received an ingredient application for.... camels milk!!!
Upon rejection, the company asked for an explanation since our system considers milk a Group 1 ingredient (acceptable from any source...) While they understood the explanation, we are now changing our database to list it as "cow milk".
One of the companies I researched actually has a regular dairy operation which might be like davar tamei b'edro....

Do you work for the OU, or a food company?

[moko]

Do you work for the OU, or a food company?

neither. I used to freelance, primarily worked for OU. Now I'm with KVH

[yelped]

Just to add to the conversation, I just received an ingredient application for.... camels milk!!!
Upon rejection, the company asked for an explanation since our system considers milk a Group 1 ingredient (acceptable from any source...) While they understood the explanation, we are now changing our database to list it as "cow milk".
One of the companies I researched actually has a regular dairy operation which might be like davar tamei b'edro....

Wow.

[good sam]

From my understanding, the heter for chalav stam doesn't rely on availability of non kosher milk, or the likelihood that a gentle will mixed it in.

It's all about mirsas, i.e. government regulation and enforcement.

Someone in kashrus told me there's a six figure fine if a non-bovine animal is found on a dairy farm (in the US).

[aygart]

Someone in kashrus told me there's a six figure fine if a non-bovine animal is found on a dairy farm (in the US).

The ou article linked earlier disputes this.

[good sam]

The ou article linked earlier disputes this.

Where do you see that? The article supports what I said.

"Governmental (state) farm inspection protocol specifically includes a provision that only cows are in the farms’ milking parlors and/or cowyard."

"In light of this current state of affairs, such that the farms are indeed uniformly inspected for non-kosher animals, and the dairy plants’ inspectors work with the farm inspectors’ data, Rav Belsky ruled that the heter of cholov stam applies for those who wish to rely on it"

[aygart]

Where do you see that? The article supports what I said.

"Governmental (state) farm inspection protocol specifically includes a provision that only cows are in the farms’ milking parlors and/or cowyard."

"In light of this current state of affairs, such that the farms are indeed uniformly inspected for non-kosher animals, and the dairy plants’ inspectors work with the farm inspectors’ data, Rav Belsky ruled that the heter of cholov stam applies for those who wish to rely on it"

You wrote farm not milking parlor

[myi]

Is there any halacha shieyla of having sticky fly traps hanging which will cause the Flies to suffer before they die (tzar bar lichaim)?

[DTM]

I e-mailed the following question to the OU at kosherq@ou.org:

"I was wondering if R' Moshe Feinstein ZT'L's heter for Cholov Stam in the USA applies nowadays in Western Europe as well."

and I received the following answer:

"Thank you for contacting the OU.

One can rely on the heter of chalav stam in developed countries that have laws and enforcement.

However, one should really only buy milk that has hashgacha or is known to the local Jewish communities as being acceptable because of other possible issues at the factories.

Please do not hesitate to contact us again should you have any further questions.

Sincerely,

The Web(be) Rebbe
Orthodox Union Kashruth Division
Visit us online at: www.oukosher.org "