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Some Lomdishe Acronyms For This Thread (Feel free to update the wiki as needed.)

AYLR – Ask Your Local Rabbi
KHLH – כל המקיל לא הפסיד
IMHnrO - In My Humble non-rabbinic Opinion
MB – Mishna Berura
MM - Mar'eh Makom
MMR – Machlokes Mechaber & Rema
NM - Nafka Minah
S – Siman
SF – Se’if
SHUA – Shulchan Aruch
SK – Se’if Katan
WTM – What’s The Mekor (?)
YMMV – Your Minhag May Vary


Author Topic: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions  (Read 584670 times)

Offline chbochur

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5000 on: July 06, 2021, 10:58:48 AM »
Yes. The meaning of b'farhesia.
With all due respect to the research you put into this very sophisticated answer. This is not the Ben Shapiro show where if it's in the name it's good enough.
Halacha doesn't work that way. As an example (not sure what your standards are) according to your theory there should be no such thing as cholov stam (a term coined in the 20th century)  There should be cholov yisroel (as explained in shu"a) and non kosher milk. The name clearly says it.

Coming back to the halacha we are discussing, we need to go to the source of considering someone that is mechalel shabbos b'farhesia a goy/mumar lehachis. If you say (as most poskim) it's from the possuk v'nikdasty b'soch bnei yisroel then it would have to be in front of 10 men in a way of them standing 'together' for a minyan.

Regardless there are so many variables in such a situation for instance the m"b writes that even if he does it in front of 10 people but would be embarrassed to do it in front of a great person it is still considered in private and he would not be considered a goy/mumar lehachis.

Pls don't go and write people off of yidishkeit just on a definition of a word.

Offline yitzgar

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5001 on: July 06, 2021, 11:12:16 AM »
With all due respect to the research you put into this very sophisticated answer. This is not the Ben Shapiro show where if it's in the name it's good enough.
Halacha doesn't work that way. As an example (not sure what your standards are) according to your theory there should be no such thing as cholov stam (a term coined in the 20th century)  There should be cholov yisroel (as explained in shu"a) and non kosher milk. The name clearly says it.

Coming back to the halacha we are discussing, we need to go to the source of considering someone that is mechalel shabbos b'farhesia a goy/mumar lehachis. If you say (as most poskim) it's from the possuk v'nikdasty b'soch bnei yisroel then it would have to be in front of 10 men in a way of them standing 'together' for a minyan.

Regardless there are so many variables in such a situation for instance the m"b writes that even if he does it in front of 10 people but would be embarrassed to do it in front of a great person it is still considered in private and he would not be considered a goy/mumar lehachis.

Pls don't go and write people off of yidishkeit just on a definition of a word.
I agree that obviously you need to know what is considered befarhesia based on the sugya, but just pointing out that no one is writing anyone off of yiddishkeit. It's just a practical status with regard to counting for a minyan. Also I don't think this would necessarily make someone a mumar lehachis, could be letayavon and would be the same practical difference

Offline chbochur

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5002 on: July 06, 2021, 11:21:05 AM »
I agree that obviously you need to know what is considered befarhesia based on the sugya, but just pointing out that no one is writing anyone off of yiddishkeit. It's just a practical status with regard to counting for a minyan. Also I don't think this would necessarily make someone a mumar lehachis, could be letayavon and would be the same practical difference
You're saying a mumar l'teiovon is not counted for a minyan?

Offline yitzgar

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5003 on: July 06, 2021, 01:34:30 PM »
You're saying a mumar l'teiovon is not counted for a minyan?
That is my understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong

Offline chinagel

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5004 on: July 06, 2021, 01:39:17 PM »
With all due respect to the research you put into this very sophisticated answer. This is not the Ben Shapiro show where if it's in the name it's good enough.
Halacha doesn't work that way. As an example (not sure what your standards are) according to your theory there should be no such thing as cholov stam (a term coined in the 20th century)  There should be cholov yisroel (as explained in shu"a) and non kosher milk. The name clearly says it.

Coming back to the halacha we are discussing, we need to go to the source of considering someone that is mechalel shabbos b'farhesia a goy/mumar lehachis. If you say (as most poskim) it's from the possuk v'nikdasty b'soch bnei yisroel then it would have to be in front of 10 men in a way of them standing 'together' for a minyan.

Regardless there are so many variables in such a situation for instance the m"b writes that even if he does it in front of 10 people but would be embarrassed to do it in front of a great person it is still considered in private and he would not be considered a goy/mumar lehachis.

Pls don't go and write people off of yidishkeit just on a definition of a word.
I stand corrected. Not sure where you got the part about writing people off of yiddishkeit. The question was if they count for minyan.

Offline chbochur

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5005 on: July 06, 2021, 01:39:26 PM »
That is my understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong
Well it depends what the aveiroh is. For example if he is Mechalel shabbos leteiovon he's considered someone that is kofer b'maasei breishis. However in our case you can't say that as he is driving to shul and by doing so he is saying the exact opposite (he's being modeh in masei breishis).
But most other aveiros leteiovon (aside from avodah zoroh) would not make someone possul for a minyan.

Offline chbochur

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5006 on: July 06, 2021, 01:42:30 PM »
I stand corrected. Not sure where you got the part about writing people off of yiddishkeit. The question was if they count for minyan.
Sorry my bad .
it's just trauma I have from a boy I met and when calling his litvish father about the situation to see what we could do he told me "he's mechalel shabbos b'farhesia, you should not be talking to him"
So for some reason I assumed that's the way they treat all such cases. But I'm happy to stand corrected and take that back.

Offline yelped

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5007 on: July 06, 2021, 01:45:00 PM »
Sevaras are not halacha. Please don't "pasken" if you don't have a halachik (not a pilpul sefer) source.

Offline chbochur

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5008 on: July 06, 2021, 01:46:55 PM »
Sevaras are not halacha. Please don't "pasken" if you don't have a halachik (not a pilpul sefer) source.
Not sure if this is directed to me. But in case it is, firstly I'm not giving a psak. Secondly if you'd like I can (try to) send a source for anything I mentioned.

Offline chinagel

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5009 on: July 06, 2021, 01:48:11 PM »
Well it depends what the aveiroh is. For example if he is Mechalel shabbos leteiovon he's considered someone that is kofer b'maasei breishis. However in our case you can't say that as he is driving to shul and by doing so he is saying the exact opposite (he's being modeh in masei breishis).

Very iffy logic.
Sevaras are not halacha. Please don't "pasken" if you don't have a halachik (not a pilpul sefer) source.
Nobody's paskening overhere. Just discussing.

Offline aygart

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5010 on: July 06, 2021, 03:38:38 PM »
However in our case you can't say that as he is driving to shul and by doing so he is saying the exact opposite (he's being modeh in masei breishis).

Or he enjoys the kiddush.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5011 on: July 06, 2021, 03:39:58 PM »

So for some reason I assumed that's the way they treat all such cases.


Who is the "they" and why are you assuming that based on some random father?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5012 on: July 06, 2021, 03:41:01 PM »

Regardless there are so many variables in such a situation for instance the m"b writes that even if he does it in front of 10 people but would be embarrassed to do it in front of a great person it is still considered in private and he would not be considered a goy/mumar lehachis.


Such cases are mentioned in the gemara too.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline chbochur

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5013 on: July 06, 2021, 03:56:25 PM »
Who is the "they" and why are you assuming that based on some random father?
המבין יבין and I'll leave it at that

Offline aygart

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5014 on: July 06, 2021, 04:01:57 PM »
המבין יבין and I'll leave it at that

I have a feeling I understand all too well.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yitzgar

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5015 on: July 06, 2021, 04:23:18 PM »
Well it depends what the aveiroh is. For example if he is Mechalel shabbos leteiovon he's considered someone that is kofer b'maasei breishis. However in our case you can't say that as he is driving to shul and by doing so he is saying the exact opposite (he's being modeh in masei breishis).
But most other aveiros leteiovon (aside from avodah zoroh) would not make someone possul for a minyan.
We are talking about shabbos. I highly doubt anyone would pasken to count him for a minyan based on that sevara

Offline chbochur

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5016 on: July 06, 2021, 04:32:46 PM »
We are talking about shabbos. I highly doubt anyone would pasken to count him for a minyan based on that sevara
See igros moshe cheilek aleph siman 33

Offline yelped

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5017 on: July 06, 2021, 04:36:27 PM »
Not sure if this is directed to me. But in case it is, firstly I'm not giving a psak. Secondly if you'd like I can (try to) send a source for anything I mentioned.
I wasn't referring to you.
Nobody's paskening overhere. Just discussing.
Definitely sounded like it. I would put a qualifier before your sevaras. (No offense to you or the sevara.)
B'farhesia is not specifically in shul. If he drove to shul, that itself is b'farhesia.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5018 on: July 06, 2021, 07:09:51 PM »
Did nobody mention the Chazon Ish who holds there is no such thing as Mumar Lehachis/Apikores etc nowadays, and anybody with a Jewish mother can be counted for a minyan?

יורה דעה הלכות שחיטה - סימן ב סעיף כח



That being said, R Elyashiv and others argued with him.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2021, 07:22:42 PM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline chinagel

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #5019 on: July 06, 2021, 09:24:55 PM »
Did nobody mention the Chazon Ish who holds there is no such thing as Mumar Lehachis/Apikores etc nowadays, and anybody with a Jewish mother can be counted for a minyan?

יורה דעה הלכות שחיטה - סימן ב סעיף כח



That being said, R Elyashiv and others argued with him.
Where do you see that? Just that the vast majority of non-observant are not, not that there's no such thing.
Besides, the question was about a mechalel shabbos iinm.