All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions

[imayid2]

I beg to differ. My strings are never out, and I never thought of making pockets in the beged for them (maybe for my kids  ).

The whole pockets thing comes from a tosfos who suggests putting it in the pockets so they shouldn’t be seen. Clearly that is what they were utilizing for, even if you have another option.

[imayid2]

He literally starts off saying that the arizal says to keep up under the clothes, and immediately adds “but the strings should be out”.

[aygart]

He literally starts off saying that the arizal says to keep up under the clothes, and immediately adds “but the strings should be out”.

If not for R Reuven saying what he did, nobody would have any tzad to learn any differently.

[avromie7]

He literally starts off saying that the arizal says to keep up under the clothes, and immediately adds “but the strings should be out”.

Mibachutz is coming from the Gemara in Menachos that says tzitzis needs to be yotzei, i. e. protruding from the corner of the beged and not tucked into the corner of the beged.

ETA: He specifically decries tucking them in the corners here, he isn't discussing leaving them in pants.

[avromie7]

He literally starts off saying that the arizal says to keep up under the clothes, and immediately adds “but the strings should be out of the beged”.

FTFY

[aygart]

Mibachutz is coming from the Gemara in Menachos that says tzitzis needs to be yotzei, i. e. protruding from the corner of the beged and not tucked into the corner of the beged.

ETA: He specifically decries tucking them in the corners here, he isn't discussing leaving them in pants.

If not for R Reuven saying what he did, nobody would have any tzad to learn any differently.

[avromie7]

That doesn't mean your reading based on preconceived notions is the pashtus. The simple reading should be that he is only discussing what is included in the Gemara he quotes.

This is similar to the way most people incorrectly read R Moshe's teshuva about opening bottles on shabbos. They assume he has the same problem as everyone else which involves making the cover into a keli. R Moshe held there was no such issue, he held there is a problem of making a pesach on the bottle, and therefore poking a hole into the cover before removing it would not solve the issue.
I asked R Reuven about opening a bottle when you can get the drink out without breaking the seal and he said it's mutter if the drink is not carbonated because it already has a pesach. If the drink is carbonated, it's not a good pesach because it ruins the drink.

[aygart]

That doesn't mean your reading based on preconceived notions is the pashtus. The simple reading should be that he is only discussing what is included in the Gemara he quotes.

The simple reading is that megula and mibachutz mean visible and outside

[imayid2]

That doesn't mean your reading based on preconceived notions is the pashtus. The simple reading should be that he is only discussing what is included in the Gemara he quotes.

He is telling you what is included in that Gemara…

The meforshim on the page are clear that that’s how the mg”a is learning the Gemara. So not sure what you’re going on about.

[Torah Jew]

He says לכן. That is explicitly a hemshech of what he was just talking about.

Just showing that there are others who learn like this too.

[imayid2]

Just showing that there are others who learn like this too.

I am aware.

[imayid2]

@1:47

[monoso]

Just showing that there are others who learn like this too.

what sefer?

[avromie7]

@imayid2 @aygart this conversation got broken into too many fragments. Here is the whole MB with my comments. I didn't include the second half of SK 26 where he goes on bashing those who put the strings in their pants. This is the simple reading of the Mishnah Berurah, even if you wouldn't have read it that way without knowing what the MGA he quotes is referencing.

(כה) על בגדיו
.ובכתבים איתא דטלית קטן תחת בגדיו.

וכתב המגן אברהם, דעל כל פנים צריך שיהיו הציצית מבחוץ
If you look at the MGA, he says "like the gemara (in menachos) says "ain tzitzis elah yotzei"". That gemara is discussing how long the strings need to be, and uses this braisa to say there is no minimum length because it just needs to stick off the edge like a fringe.

ולא כאינך שתוחבין אותן בהכנפות.
The MGA is extending it to say that if the strings are tucked into the corner of the beged it isn't "yotzei"

אך האנשים שהולכים בין העכו"ם יוצאין בזה
As the MGA concludes based on the Tosefos in Berachos

ומכל מקום בשעת הברכה יהיו מגולין [כדי הילוך] ארבע אמות.
This is a continuation of the quote from the MGA, who is clearly only referring to the strings tucked into the corner of the beged.


(כו) יראהו
כמה דכתיב: "וראיתם אותו וזכרתם" וגו'.
This is why the Mechaber says you should wear the whole thing out.

ואותן האנשים המשימין הציצית בהמכנסים שלהם, לא די שמעלימין עיניהם ממאי דכתיב: "וראיתם אותו וזכרתם" וגו', עוד מבזין הן את מצוַת השם יתברך, ועתידין הן ליתן את הדין על זה
Here he decries putting the strings in pants, but if he was talking about those who wear the beged under the shirt, the next sentence makes no sense.

ומה שאומרין שהולכים בין הנוכרים, לזה היה די שישימו הציצית בתוך הכנף.
Instead of tucking it into their pants they would be better off tucking it into the corners.
 

Please explain how when wearing the beged under the shirt, there is something to gain by putting the strings in the corners instead of just leaving them inside the shirt or pants?

[aygart]

I didn't include the second half of SK 26 where he goes on bashing those who put the strings in their pants.

I thought there was no such MB?

[avromie7]

I thought there was no such MB?

He's clearly not talking about us who wear the beged under the shirt as I explained in the end of my post.

[imayid2]

@imayid2 @aygart this conversation got broken into too many fragments. Here is the whole MB with my comments. I didn't include the second half of SK 26 where he goes on bashing those who put the strings in their pants. This is the simple reading of the Mishnah Berurah, even if you wouldn't have read it that way without knowing what the MGA he quotes is referencing.

(כה) על בגדיו
.ובכתבים איתא דטלית קטן תחת בגדיו.

וכתב המגן אברהם, דעל כל פנים צריך שיהיו הציצית מבחוץ
If you look at the MGA, he says "like the gemara (in menachos) says "ain tzitzis elah yotzei"". That gemara is discussing how long the strings need to be, and uses this braisa to say there is no minimum length because it just needs to stick off the edge like a fringe.

Also, the MGA infers from this Gemara that tzitzis are supposed to be visible, that’s why they need to be יוצא.

ומכל מקום בשעת הברכה יהיו מגולין [כדי הילוך] ארבע אמות.
This is a continuation of the quote from the MGA, who is clearly only referring to the strings tucked into the corner of the beged.

No, that is not “clear”. A perusal of the instances where tucking into corners comes up reveals that that is merely one way used to hide the tzitzis. For example, the MB says to put it into the corners when in a cemetery do the dead can’t “see” it.

How does that compute with your thesis?

ומה שאומרין שהולכים בין הנוכרים, לזה היה די שישימו הציצית בתוך הכנף.
Instead of tucking it into their pants they would be better off tucking it into the corners.
 

Please explain how when wearing the beged under the shirt, there is something to gain by putting the strings in the corners instead of just leaving them inside the shirt or pants?

Apparently he feels that in the pants is more of a bizayon than neatly tucked in the corners.

How is the differentiation any more understandable if the beged is over the shirt?

[avromie7]

Also, the MGA infers from this Gemara that tzitzis are supposed to be visible, that’s why they need to be יוצא.

He doesn't say that, and there is nothing in this gemara to infer that from.

No, that is not “clear”. A perusal of the instances where tucking into corners comes up reveals that that is merely one way used to hide the tzitzis. For example, the MB says to put it into the corners when in a cemetery do the dead can’t “see” it.

How does that compute with your thesis?

He's talking about if the beged is out. If the beged (and strings) are under the shirt, there is nothing to hide.

Apparently he feels that in the pants is more of a bizayon than neatly tucked in the corners.

How is the differentiation any more understandable if the beged is over the shirt?

He is decrying taking the tzitzis that are out and hiding them in your pants. TBH I don't fully understand why in pants is worse than in corners, maybe because although you are hiding the tzitzis in the beged, you aren't tucking them away. It's a bigger bizayon to tuck them in because you are hiding them away. If they are under the shirt/in pants, it isn't any less hidden away if the strings are then tucked into the corners.

[imayid2]

He doesn't say that, and there is nothing in this gemara to infer that from.

This is arguable. He seems to be telling us this, and politely disagreeing with your assessment of the Gemara.

TBH I don't fully understand why in pants is worse than in corners

Well, you cannot prove that he’s talking about over the beged based on a question that applies just the same your way.

[avromie7]

This is arguable. He seems to be telling us this, and politely disagreeing with your assessment of the Gemara.

Please explain where you see that, and how the Gemara can possibly be discussing strings in pants.