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Some Lomdishe Acronyms For This Thread (Feel free to update the wiki as needed.)

AYLR – Ask Your Local Rabbi
KHLH – כל המקיל לא הפסיד
IMHnrO - In My Humble non-rabbinic Opinion
MB – Mishna Berura
MM - Mar'eh Makom
MMR – Machlokes Mechaber & Rema
NM - Nafka Minah
S – Siman
SF – Se’if
SHUA – Shulchan Aruch
SK – Se’if Katan
WTM – What’s The Mekor (?)
YMMV – Your Minhag May Vary


Author Topic: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions  (Read 451443 times)

Offline myi

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3855 on: September 24, 2019, 03:38:56 PM »
Rice is very important in a chinese meal and if I dont get the rice I ordered the restaurant should be responsible. I hate these restaurants who think they can just give you whatever you want even though you didnt order it and have no consequences. They are given your phone number and can call you to tell you that they are out of something and ask you if you want something else instead so they dont get a charge back.

That happened to me many times. Or if you dont like what they can offer They can cancel the order for you. But if they send you the wrong thing they should lose the $. I always offer them to come pick it up as I dont want it. (Once they did come and pick it up when they were sending a replacement)
Wow, I see you mean business when it comes to the rice.
  it's not much different than ordering a pie pizza which comes with a fries.  for example if one only likes regular he hates spicy fries and they say they're out of regular fries and send them spicy fries.

 I definitely hear you're coming from just the concept that you got the food and the rice, they did what was good for them, as there was no white rice Avlb ( assuming that's what happened, I even double-checked and I saw I ordered white rice while the receipt shows fried rice.
   
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Offline mochjas

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3856 on: September 24, 2019, 03:44:35 PM »
Wow, I see you mean business when it comes to the rice.
  it's not much different than ordering a pie pizza which comes with a fries.  for example if one only likes regular he hates spicy fries and they say they're out of regular fries and send them spicy fries.

 I definitely hear you're coming from just the concept that you got the food and the rice, they did what was good for them, as there was no white rice Avlb ( assuming that's what happened, I even double-checked and I saw I ordered white rice while the receipt shows fried rice.
 
Im not necessarily referring to rice. But anytime they want to substitute they should ask you first. If they dont they can come pick it up and they are subject to grubhubs rules of how they handle delivering a wrong delivery

Offline avromie7

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3857 on: September 24, 2019, 03:50:24 PM »
Wow, I see you mean business when it comes to the rice.
  it's not much different than ordering a pie pizza which comes with a fries.  for example if one only likes regular he hates spicy fries and they say they're out of regular fries and send them spicy fries.

 I definitely hear you're coming from just the concept that you got the food and the rice, they did what was good for them, as there was no white rice Avlb ( assuming that's what happened, I even double-checked and I saw I ordered white rice while the receipt shows fried rice.
 
-1 rice is more important to chinese than fries are to pizza.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline myi

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3858 on: September 24, 2019, 03:52:29 PM »
-1 rice is more important to chinese than fries are to pizza.
Could be, but the concept!
  I could definitely see that, they put it in a special box with a metal hook and handle versus stuffing it together with the chicken.

 And where do you think I buy all my basmati and sushi rice from? Yup Chinese groceries in China Town.
  So I guess it's kind of a main course by them.
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Offline Yard sale

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3859 on: September 24, 2019, 04:09:35 PM »
if they send you the wrong thing they should lose the $. I always offer them to come pick it up as I dont want it. (Once they did come and pick it up when they were sending a replacement)

Again, depending on how vastly  the item differs from what was promised, from a halachic standpoint you may not even have any right to force them to take it back for a refund or replacement. ( Although it would probably be bad business practice for them to refuse.)


Im not necessarily referring to rice. But anytime they want to substitute they should ask you first. If they dont they can come pick it up and they are subject to grubhubs rules of how they handle delivering a wrong delivery

 How is that different than saying that a Jewish merchant should be subject to the chargeback rules of Amex rather than halacha if I have a problem with his service or product? There is a shulchan aruch that we follow. Occasionally, normal and customary business practices can establish a minhag (not to be confused with dina dimalchusa) but that is not something one can assume.

Just because Amex or Grubhub have systems in place to protect consumers doesn’t mean that one is automatically entitled to use them  to obtain something they are not halachicly entitled to. These are serious questions and should be directed to a Rav.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 04:16:25 PM by Yard sale »

Offline mochjas

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3860 on: September 24, 2019, 04:35:06 PM »
Again, depending on how vastly  the item differs from what was promised, from a halachic standpoint you may not even have any right to force them to take it back for a refund or replacement. ( Although it would probably be bad business practice for them to refuse.)


 How is that different than saying that a Jewish merchant should be subject to the chargeback rules of Amex rather than halacha if I have a problem with his service or product? There is a shulchan aruch that we follow. Occasionally, normal and customary business practices can establish a minhag (not to be confused with dina dimalchusa) but that is not something one can assume.

Just because Amex or Grubhub have systems in place to protect consumers doesn’t mean that one is automatically entitled to use them  to obtain something they are not halachicly entitled to. These are serious questions and should be directed to a Rav.
Why is the Jewish Merchant allowed to give me whatever he feels like when I paid for something and expect to get what I ordered?

 Does he call up his Rabbi to ask if he can give me the wrong thing that I didnt order? Sometimes we can use common sense I dont need to bother my Rabbi with a small $18 question. If a merchant agrees to accept amex and goes on grubhub, whether he is jewish or not he agrees to follow their rules and should be subjected to them.

Online skyguy918

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3861 on: September 24, 2019, 04:40:31 PM »
Why is the Jewish Merchant allowed to give me whatever he feels like when I paid for something and expect to get what I ordered?

 Does he call up his Rabbi to ask if he can give me the wrong thing that I didnt order? Sometimes we can use common sense I dont need to bother my Rabbi with a small $18 question. If a merchant agrees to accept amex and goes on grubhub, whether he is jewish or not he agrees to follow their rules and should be subjected to them.
I can't say whether you're ultimately right or wrong on this issue, but I can certainly say that your concept of how to get at what's right in halacha is very wrong.

Offline mochjas

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3862 on: September 24, 2019, 04:51:10 PM »
I can't say whether you're ultimately right or wrong on this issue, but I can certainly say that your concept of how to get at what's right in halacha is very wrong.
I agree with that but it is really frustrating when you order a lot (different orders) and they get your order wrong a lot (not necessarily the same place) But honestly I am not bothering my Rabbi with such a small question. Just being honest

Offline aygart

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3863 on: September 24, 2019, 04:59:44 PM »
How is that different than saying that a Jewish merchant should be subject to the chargeback rules of Amex rather than halacha if I have a problem with his service or product?
One possible reason may be that here you are ordering it from GrubHub.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Yard sale

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3864 on: September 24, 2019, 05:06:46 PM »
Why is the Jewish Merchant allowed to give me whatever he feels like when I paid for something and expect to get what I ordered?

 Does he call up his Rabbi to ask if he can give me the wrong thing that I didnt order? Sometimes we can use common sense I dont need to bother my Rabbi with a small $18 question. If a merchant agrees to accept amex and goes on grubhub, whether he is jewish or not he agrees to follow their rules and should be subjected to them.
I agree with that but it is really frustrating when you order a lot (different orders) and they get your order wrong a lot (not necessarily the same place) But honestly I am not bothering my Rabbi with such a small question. Just being honest

A merchant is never allowed to misrepresent, overcharge, shortchange, etc. The question is at what point it becomes actionable according to Halacha, or at what point an action on the part of one of the parties is considered to be a waiver.

Taking possession of $18 that one is not entitled to is viewed as seriously in Halacha as taking $18,000.  If it’s too small to bother the Rabbi, it’s too small to make a stand on it. Swallow the money and move on, rather than risk a serious violation of Halacha. By the way, there are many  Rabbanim who would be more than happy to answer shaalos involving even small monetary amounts.

People often fail to recognize the gravity of  choshen mishpat shaalos and figure that they can just wing it. They will call the rabbi to ask if they have a heter to eat on tisha bi’av due to illness, or if they can stay on a bus after shkia when they are stuck in a storm late on a winter Friday, not realizing that the $18 choshen mishpat shaalah may be more serious than the either of the above.

.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 05:13:09 PM by Yard sale »

Offline Yard sale

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3865 on: September 24, 2019, 05:10:27 PM »
One possible reason may be that here you are ordering it from GrubHub.

Possibly. As per the user agreement, Grubhub considers themselves to be an agent of the food establishment, merely taking a commission of each sale so I would not think that is so simple.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3866 on: September 24, 2019, 05:20:17 PM »
Aren't 2 Jews allowed to make stipulations that go against Halacha if they both agree? So if they agree to follow grubhub or amex instead of Halacha, isn't that allowed? Isn't it also logical that by listing on grubhub the establishment is mochel on whatever grubhub takes (thats within the T&C)?

Offline cmey

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3867 on: September 24, 2019, 06:15:08 PM »
Aren't 2 Jews allowed to make stipulations that go against Halacha if they both agree? So if they agree to follow grubhub or amex instead of Halacha, isn't that allowed? Isn't it also logical that by listing on grubhub the establishment is mochel on whatever grubhub takes (thats within the T&C)?

AFAIK in theory 2 Jews can make stipulations but it is limited. Not every fine print is a תנאי. For example, having fine print that a contract will follow all applicable state laws etc. would not exempt the parties from תורה law absent a clear מנהג. Many stipulations are אסמכתא or have other issues that make them halachicly unenforceable. It is highly questionable if using Amex or Grubhub is a תנאי to be subject to their decision in any halachic dispute.

Even if it were, I’m not sure how that would be treated in Halacha. There is a vast difference between terms that are clearly defined; i.e. “it gets delivered within 30 minutes or its free” as opposed to reaching out to GrubHub or Amex to remedy a case by case issue or dispute that the third party adjudicates. At the very least ask a Rav for guidance.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3868 on: September 24, 2019, 06:18:56 PM »
Not the same situation, but Rav Moshe famously held that Jewish landlords were bound by rent control laws to Jewish tenants.

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3869 on: September 25, 2019, 02:31:34 PM »

What's your opinion?
I spoke to a Rov. He said you must pay back the store Ma shenehene that is the amount you would've been willing to pay if that was all they offered (at a discount). In other words, if the store said they only had fried rice and they would give it to you for $16, you would take the deal, thats how much you have to pay. If you would only take the "deal" if it was for less that is considered your "benefit" from the restaurant
Small people talk about other people.
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BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.