All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions

[mochjas]

Again, depending on how vastly  the item differs from what was promised, from a halachic standpoint you may not even have any right to force them to take it back for a refund or replacement. ( Although it would probably be bad business practice for them to refuse.)


 How is that different than saying that a Jewish merchant should be subject to the chargeback rules of Amex rather than halacha if I have a problem with his service or product? There is a shulchan aruch that we follow. Occasionally, normal and customary business practices can establish a minhag (not to be confused with dina dimalchusa) but that is not something one can assume.

Just because Amex or Grubhub have systems in place to protect consumers doesn’t mean that one is automatically entitled to use them  to obtain something they are not halachicly entitled to. These are serious questions and should be directed to a Rav.

Why is the Jewish Merchant allowed to give me whatever he feels like when I paid for something and expect to get what I ordered?

 Does he call up his Rabbi to ask if he can give me the wrong thing that I didnt order? Sometimes we can use common sense I dont need to bother my Rabbi with a small $18 question. If a merchant agrees to accept amex and goes on grubhub, whether he is jewish or not he agrees to follow their rules and should be subjected to them.

[skyguy918]

Why is the Jewish Merchant allowed to give me whatever he feels like when I paid for something and expect to get what I ordered?

 Does he call up his Rabbi to ask if he can give me the wrong thing that I didnt order? Sometimes we can use common sense I dont need to bother my Rabbi with a small $18 question. If a merchant agrees to accept amex and goes on grubhub, whether he is jewish or not he agrees to follow their rules and should be subjected to them.

I can't say whether you're ultimately right or wrong on this issue, but I can certainly say that your concept of how to get at what's right in halacha is very wrong.

[mochjas]

I can't say whether you're ultimately right or wrong on this issue, but I can certainly say that your concept of how to get at what's right in halacha is very wrong.

I agree with that but it is really frustrating when you order a lot (different orders) and they get your order wrong a lot (not necessarily the same place) But honestly I am not bothering my Rabbi with such a small question. Just being honest

[aygart]

How is that different than saying that a Jewish merchant should be subject to the chargeback rules of Amex rather than halacha if I have a problem with his service or product?

One possible reason may be that here you are ordering it from GrubHub.

[Yard sale]

Why is the Jewish Merchant allowed to give me whatever he feels like when I paid for something and expect to get what I ordered?

 Does he call up his Rabbi to ask if he can give me the wrong thing that I didnt order? Sometimes we can use common sense I dont need to bother my Rabbi with a small $18 question. If a merchant agrees to accept amex and goes on grubhub, whether he is jewish or not he agrees to follow their rules and should be subjected to them.

I agree with that but it is really frustrating when you order a lot (different orders) and they get your order wrong a lot (not necessarily the same place) But honestly I am not bothering my Rabbi with such a small question. Just being honest

A merchant is never allowed to misrepresent, overcharge, shortchange, etc. The question is at what point it becomes actionable according to Halacha, or at what point an action on the part of one of the parties is considered to be a waiver.

Taking possession of $18 that one is not entitled to is viewed as seriously in Halacha as taking $18,000.  If it’s too small to bother the Rabbi, it’s too small to make a stand on it. Swallow the money and move on, rather than risk a serious violation of Halacha. By the way, there are many  Rabbanim who would be more than happy to answer shaalos involving even small monetary amounts.

People often fail to recognize the gravity of  choshen mishpat shaalos and figure that they can just wing it. They will call the rabbi to ask if they have a heter to eat on tisha bi’av due to illness, or if they can stay on a bus after shkia when they are stuck in a storm late on a winter Friday, not realizing that the $18 choshen mishpat shaalah may be more serious than the either of the above.

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[Yard sale]

One possible reason may be that here you are ordering it from GrubHub.

Possibly. As per the user agreement, Grubhub considers themselves to be an agent of the food establishment, merely taking a commission of each sale so I would not think that is so simple.

[shaulyaakov]

Aren't 2 Jews allowed to make stipulations that go against Halacha if they both agree? So if they agree to follow grubhub or amex instead of Halacha, isn't that allowed? Isn't it also logical that by listing on grubhub the establishment is mochel on whatever grubhub takes (thats within the T&C)?

[cmey]

Aren't 2 Jews allowed to make stipulations that go against Halacha if they both agree? So if they agree to follow grubhub or amex instead of Halacha, isn't that allowed? Isn't it also logical that by listing on grubhub the establishment is mochel on whatever grubhub takes (thats within the T&C)?

AFAIK in theory 2 Jews can make stipulations but it is limited. Not every fine print is a תנאי. For example, having fine print that a contract will follow all applicable state laws etc. would not exempt the parties from תורה law absent a clear מנהג. Many stipulations are אסמכתא or have other issues that make them halachicly unenforceable. It is highly questionable if using Amex or Grubhub is a תנאי to be subject to their decision in any halachic dispute.

Even if it were, I’m not sure how that would be treated in Halacha. There is a vast difference between terms that are clearly defined; i.e. “it gets delivered within 30 minutes or its free” as opposed to reaching out to GrubHub or Amex to remedy a case by case issue or dispute that the third party adjudicates. At the very least ask a Rav for guidance.

[shaulyaakov]

Not the same situation, but Rav Moshe famously held that Jewish landlords were bound by rent control laws to Jewish tenants.

[yungermanchik]

What's your opinion?

I spoke to a Rov. He said you must pay back the store Ma shenehene that is the amount you would've been willing to pay if that was all they offered (at a discount). In other words, if the store said they only had fried rice and they would give it to you for $16, you would take the deal, thats how much you have to pay. If you would only take the "deal" if it was for less that is considered your "benefit" from the restaurant

[mochjas]

I spoke to a Rov. He said you must pay back the store Ma shenehene that is the amount you would've been willing to pay if that was all they offered (at a discount). In other words, if the store said they only had fried rice and they would give it to you for $16, you would take the deal, thats how much you have to pay. If you would only take the "deal" if it was for less that is considered your "benefit" from the restaurant

I dont see why this should be true. The guy agreed to sell on grubhub and he agreed to follow their decisions, if they say that I am entitled to a refund then I should get the refund.

[yungermanchik]

I dont see why this should be true. The guy agreed to sell on grubhub and he agreed to follow their decisions, if they say that I am entitled to a refund then I should get the refund.

That doesn't absolve you from following dini torah, which say that if you benefited from another Jew's food you must pay the amount that you benefited to him.

[mochjas]

That doesn't absolve you from following dini torah, which say that if you benefited from another Jew's food you must pay the amount that you benefited to him.

no problem so let him come pick it up. I ordered delivery because I don’t want to leave my house. Now he messes up on the order and I am obligated to go to him and give him money?

[yitzgar]

I spoke to a Rov. He said you must pay back the store Ma shenehene that is the amount you would've been willing to pay if that was all they offered (at a discount). In other words, if the store said they only had fried rice and they would give it to you for $16, you would take the deal, thats how much you have to pay. If you would only take the "deal" if it was for less that is considered your "benefit" from the restaurant

That would only be if you eat it. You aren't required to accept an incorrect order

[yungermanchik]

no problem so let him come pick it up. I ordered delivery because I don’t want to leave my house. Now he messes up on the order and I am obligated to go to him and give him money?

if you call him it shouldn't be difficult for him to charge your cc the correct amount.

[yungermanchik]

That would only be if you eat it. You aren't required to accept an incorrect order

  absolutely. however the case was that he ate it.  "A good review I did do as the food was very good"

[myi]

  absolutely. however the case was that he ate it.  "A good review I did do as the food was very good"

-1/2

Except for the rice which I wouldn't write a bad review for, as I never ordered it.
  it's almost like a meal that you hate and taste it and say nasty and you leave a review about that food that it was nasty, why order to begin with.
  In other words I'm buying food to leave a bad review.
Hence my reason for not leaving a reveiw about the rice!

[mochjas]

That would only be if you eat it. You aren't required to accept an incorrect order

so how about when I ordered a dessert on Uber eats and got a burger. Uber eats asked me if I want to wait for the new dessert and I didn’t want to wait another hour so I said no. They gave me the refund. I left the burger in the fridge and ate it the next day. You’re telling me I have to pay them for it even though I didn’t order that. (This time the mistake was by the delivery guy who probably gave me someone else’s order)

[aygart]

-1/2

Except for the rice which I wouldn't write a bad review for, as I never ordered it.
  it's almost like a meal that you hate and taste it and say nasty and you leave a review about that food that it was nasty, why order to begin with.
  In other words I'm buying food to leave a bad review.
Hence my reason for not leaving a reveiw about the rice!

Okay, so how much of the $18 is attributable to the rice?

[myi]

Okay, so how much of the $18 is attributable to the rice?

It's like ordering a burger and they mistakenly forget to put the inside , meaning the lettuce and tomato, dressing and all. So yes you got the Berger but boy was it nasty eating it plain, same over here I enjoy ordering chicken and a side and use the side together with the main, like ketchup and french fries is ainoy domeh to fries and ketchup with fries and w/o ketchup.

 So kind of hard to make up a price.

 But I'm asking this question, primarily because I felt a bit guilty eating a meal and getting a refund for it.