Topic Wiki

Some Lomdishe Acronyms For This Thread (Feel free to update the wiki as needed.)

AYLR – Ask Your Local Rabbi
KHLH – כל המקיל לא הפסיד
IMHnrO - In My Humble non-rabbinic Opinion
MB – Mishna Berura
MM - Mar'eh Makom
MMR – Machlokes Mechaber & Rema
NM - Nafka Minah
S – Siman
SF – Se’if
SHUA – Shulchan Aruch
SK – Se’if Katan
WTM – What’s The Mekor (?)
YMMV – Your Minhag May Vary


Author Topic: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions  (Read 559675 times)

Offline mochjas

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Posts: 8815
  • Total likes: 761
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 121
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Titanium Elite, AA EX PLAT, Jetblue Mosaic, Qatar Gold, United Silver
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3860 on: September 24, 2019, 04:35:06 PM »
Again, depending on how vastly  the item differs from what was promised, from a halachic standpoint you may not even have any right to force them to take it back for a refund or replacement. ( Although it would probably be bad business practice for them to refuse.)


 How is that different than saying that a Jewish merchant should be subject to the chargeback rules of Amex rather than halacha if I have a problem with his service or product? There is a shulchan aruch that we follow. Occasionally, normal and customary business practices can establish a minhag (not to be confused with dina dimalchusa) but that is not something one can assume.

Just because Amex or Grubhub have systems in place to protect consumers doesn’t mean that one is automatically entitled to use them  to obtain something they are not halachicly entitled to. These are serious questions and should be directed to a Rav.
Why is the Jewish Merchant allowed to give me whatever he feels like when I paid for something and expect to get what I ordered?

 Does he call up his Rabbi to ask if he can give me the wrong thing that I didnt order? Sometimes we can use common sense I dont need to bother my Rabbi with a small $18 question. If a merchant agrees to accept amex and goes on grubhub, whether he is jewish or not he agrees to follow their rules and should be subjected to them.

Offline skyguy918

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 3357
  • Total likes: 539
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Queens, NY
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3861 on: September 24, 2019, 04:40:31 PM »
Why is the Jewish Merchant allowed to give me whatever he feels like when I paid for something and expect to get what I ordered?

 Does he call up his Rabbi to ask if he can give me the wrong thing that I didnt order? Sometimes we can use common sense I dont need to bother my Rabbi with a small $18 question. If a merchant agrees to accept amex and goes on grubhub, whether he is jewish or not he agrees to follow their rules and should be subjected to them.
I can't say whether you're ultimately right or wrong on this issue, but I can certainly say that your concept of how to get at what's right in halacha is very wrong.

Offline mochjas

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Posts: 8815
  • Total likes: 761
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 121
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Titanium Elite, AA EX PLAT, Jetblue Mosaic, Qatar Gold, United Silver
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3862 on: September 24, 2019, 04:51:10 PM »
I can't say whether you're ultimately right or wrong on this issue, but I can certainly say that your concept of how to get at what's right in halacha is very wrong.
I agree with that but it is really frustrating when you order a lot (different orders) and they get your order wrong a lot (not necessarily the same place) But honestly I am not bothering my Rabbi with such a small question. Just being honest

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13091
  • Total likes: 7745
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3863 on: September 24, 2019, 04:59:44 PM »
How is that different than saying that a Jewish merchant should be subject to the chargeback rules of Amex rather than halacha if I have a problem with his service or product?
One possible reason may be that here you are ordering it from GrubHub.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Yard sale

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jun 2018
  • Posts: 898
  • Total likes: 467
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3864 on: September 24, 2019, 05:06:46 PM »
Why is the Jewish Merchant allowed to give me whatever he feels like when I paid for something and expect to get what I ordered?

 Does he call up his Rabbi to ask if he can give me the wrong thing that I didnt order? Sometimes we can use common sense I dont need to bother my Rabbi with a small $18 question. If a merchant agrees to accept amex and goes on grubhub, whether he is jewish or not he agrees to follow their rules and should be subjected to them.
I agree with that but it is really frustrating when you order a lot (different orders) and they get your order wrong a lot (not necessarily the same place) But honestly I am not bothering my Rabbi with such a small question. Just being honest

A merchant is never allowed to misrepresent, overcharge, shortchange, etc. The question is at what point it becomes actionable according to Halacha, or at what point an action on the part of one of the parties is considered to be a waiver.

Taking possession of $18 that one is not entitled to is viewed as seriously in Halacha as taking $18,000.  If it’s too small to bother the Rabbi, it’s too small to make a stand on it. Swallow the money and move on, rather than risk a serious violation of Halacha. By the way, there are many  Rabbanim who would be more than happy to answer shaalos involving even small monetary amounts.

People often fail to recognize the gravity of  choshen mishpat shaalos and figure that they can just wing it. They will call the rabbi to ask if they have a heter to eat on tisha bi’av due to illness, or if they can stay on a bus after shkia when they are stuck in a storm late on a winter Friday, not realizing that the $18 choshen mishpat shaalah may be more serious than the either of the above.

.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 05:13:09 PM by Yard sale »

Offline Yard sale

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jun 2018
  • Posts: 898
  • Total likes: 467
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3865 on: September 24, 2019, 05:10:27 PM »
One possible reason may be that here you are ordering it from GrubHub.

Possibly. As per the user agreement, Grubhub considers themselves to be an agent of the food establishment, merely taking a commission of each sale so I would not think that is so simple.

Offline shaulyaakov

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 2654
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3866 on: September 24, 2019, 05:20:17 PM »
Aren't 2 Jews allowed to make stipulations that go against Halacha if they both agree? So if they agree to follow grubhub or amex instead of Halacha, isn't that allowed? Isn't it also logical that by listing on grubhub the establishment is mochel on whatever grubhub takes (thats within the T&C)?

Offline cmey

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 390
  • Total likes: 189
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: lakewood
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3867 on: September 24, 2019, 06:15:08 PM »
Aren't 2 Jews allowed to make stipulations that go against Halacha if they both agree? So if they agree to follow grubhub or amex instead of Halacha, isn't that allowed? Isn't it also logical that by listing on grubhub the establishment is mochel on whatever grubhub takes (thats within the T&C)?

AFAIK in theory 2 Jews can make stipulations but it is limited. Not every fine print is a תנאי. For example, having fine print that a contract will follow all applicable state laws etc. would not exempt the parties from תורה law absent a clear מנהג. Many stipulations are אסמכתא or have other issues that make them halachicly unenforceable. It is highly questionable if using Amex or Grubhub is a תנאי to be subject to their decision in any halachic dispute.

Even if it were, I’m not sure how that would be treated in Halacha. There is a vast difference between terms that are clearly defined; i.e. “it gets delivered within 30 minutes or its free” as opposed to reaching out to GrubHub or Amex to remedy a case by case issue or dispute that the third party adjudicates. At the very least ask a Rav for guidance.

Offline shaulyaakov

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 2654
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3868 on: September 24, 2019, 06:18:56 PM »
Not the same situation, but Rav Moshe famously held that Jewish landlords were bound by rent control laws to Jewish tenants.

Offline yungermanchik

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2018
  • Posts: 1300
  • Total likes: 886
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Previous Signatures: If you chapped hana'ah from a post, like it; You think you know the answers and things are the way they seem.. it just ain't so -The Rebbe from Lublin-
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3869 on: September 25, 2019, 02:31:34 PM »

What's your opinion?
I spoke to a Rov. He said you must pay back the store Ma shenehene that is the amount you would've been willing to pay if that was all they offered (at a discount). In other words, if the store said they only had fried rice and they would give it to you for $16, you would take the deal, thats how much you have to pay. If you would only take the "deal" if it was for less that is considered your "benefit" from the restaurant
Small people talk about other people.
Average people talk about things
BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.

Offline mochjas

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Posts: 8815
  • Total likes: 761
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 121
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Titanium Elite, AA EX PLAT, Jetblue Mosaic, Qatar Gold, United Silver
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3870 on: September 25, 2019, 02:34:30 PM »
I spoke to a Rov. He said you must pay back the store Ma shenehene that is the amount you would've been willing to pay if that was all they offered (at a discount). In other words, if the store said they only had fried rice and they would give it to you for $16, you would take the deal, thats how much you have to pay. If you would only take the "deal" if it was for less that is considered your "benefit" from the restaurant
I dont see why this should be true. The guy agreed to sell on grubhub and he agreed to follow their decisions, if they say that I am entitled to a refund then I should get the refund.

Offline yungermanchik

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2018
  • Posts: 1300
  • Total likes: 886
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Previous Signatures: If you chapped hana'ah from a post, like it; You think you know the answers and things are the way they seem.. it just ain't so -The Rebbe from Lublin-
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3871 on: September 25, 2019, 02:40:40 PM »
I dont see why this should be true. The guy agreed to sell on grubhub and he agreed to follow their decisions, if they say that I am entitled to a refund then I should get the refund.
That doesn't absolve you from following dini torah, which say that if you benefited from another Jew's food you must pay the amount that you benefited to him.
Small people talk about other people.
Average people talk about things
BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.

Offline mochjas

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Posts: 8815
  • Total likes: 761
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 121
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Titanium Elite, AA EX PLAT, Jetblue Mosaic, Qatar Gold, United Silver
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3872 on: September 25, 2019, 02:43:46 PM »
That doesn't absolve you from following dini torah, which say that if you benefited from another Jew's food you must pay the amount that you benefited to him.
no problem so let him come pick it up. I ordered delivery because I don’t want to leave my house. Now he messes up on the order and I am obligated to go to him and give him money?

Offline yitzgar

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2016
  • Posts: 2319
  • Total likes: 659
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3873 on: September 25, 2019, 02:53:01 PM »
I spoke to a Rov. He said you must pay back the store Ma shenehene that is the amount you would've been willing to pay if that was all they offered (at a discount). In other words, if the store said they only had fried rice and they would give it to you for $16, you would take the deal, thats how much you have to pay. If you would only take the "deal" if it was for less that is considered your "benefit" from the restaurant
That would only be if you eat it. You aren't required to accept an incorrect order

Offline yungermanchik

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2018
  • Posts: 1300
  • Total likes: 886
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Previous Signatures: If you chapped hana'ah from a post, like it; You think you know the answers and things are the way they seem.. it just ain't so -The Rebbe from Lublin-
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3874 on: September 25, 2019, 02:54:14 PM »
no problem so let him come pick it up. I ordered delivery because I don’t want to leave my house. Now he messes up on the order and I am obligated to go to him and give him money?
if you call him it shouldn't be difficult for him to charge your cc the correct amount.
Small people talk about other people.
Average people talk about things
BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.

Offline yungermanchik

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2018
  • Posts: 1300
  • Total likes: 886
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Previous Signatures: If you chapped hana'ah from a post, like it; You think you know the answers and things are the way they seem.. it just ain't so -The Rebbe from Lublin-
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3875 on: September 25, 2019, 02:57:57 PM »
That would only be if you eat it. You aren't required to accept an incorrect order
  absolutely. however the case was that he ate it.  "A good review I did do as the food was very good"
Small people talk about other people.
Average people talk about things
BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.

Offline myi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2015
  • Posts: 21239
  • Total likes: 1654
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 313
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: InMyPants! 🙈
  • Programs: 2Many2List!
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3876 on: September 25, 2019, 03:08:21 PM »
  absolutely. however the case was that he ate it.  "A good review I did do as the food was very good"
-1/2

Except for the rice which I wouldn't write a bad review for, as I never ordered it.
  it's almost like a meal that you hate and taste it and say nasty and you leave a review about that food that it was nasty, why order to begin with.
  In other words I'm buying food to leave a bad review.
Hence my reason for not leaving a reveiw about the rice!
Don't try to be someone else , be who you are because everyone else is taken.

Offline mochjas

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Posts: 8815
  • Total likes: 761
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 121
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Titanium Elite, AA EX PLAT, Jetblue Mosaic, Qatar Gold, United Silver
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3877 on: September 25, 2019, 03:18:10 PM »
That would only be if you eat it. You aren't required to accept an incorrect order
so how about when I ordered a dessert on Uber eats and got a burger. Uber eats asked me if I want to wait for the new dessert and I didn’t want to wait another hour so I said no. They gave me the refund. I left the burger in the fridge and ate it the next day. You’re telling me I have to pay them for it even though I didn’t order that. (This time the mistake was by the delivery guy who probably gave me someone else’s order)

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13091
  • Total likes: 7745
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3878 on: September 25, 2019, 03:31:10 PM »
-1/2

Except for the rice which I wouldn't write a bad review for, as I never ordered it.
  it's almost like a meal that you hate and taste it and say nasty and you leave a review about that food that it was nasty, why order to begin with.
  In other words I'm buying food to leave a bad review.
Hence my reason for not leaving a reveiw about the rice!
Okay, so how much of the $18 is attributable to the rice?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline myi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2015
  • Posts: 21239
  • Total likes: 1654
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 313
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: InMyPants! 🙈
  • Programs: 2Many2List!
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #3879 on: September 25, 2019, 03:48:47 PM »
Okay, so how much of the $18 is attributable to the rice?
It's like ordering a burger and they mistakenly forget to put the inside , meaning the lettuce and tomato, dressing and all. So yes you got the Berger but boy was it nasty eating it plain, same over here I enjoy ordering chicken and a side and use the side together with the main, like ketchup and french fries is ainoy domeh to fries and ketchup with fries and w/o ketchup.

 So kind of hard to make up a price.

 But I'm asking this question, primarily because I felt a bit guilty eating a meal and getting a refund for it.
Don't try to be someone else , be who you are because everyone else is taken.