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Some Lomdishe Acronyms For This Thread (Feel free to update the wiki as needed.)

AYLR – Ask Your Local Rabbi
KHLH – כל המקיל לא הפסיד
IMHnrO - In My Humble non-rabbinic Opinion
MB – Mishna Berura
MM - Mar'eh Makom
MMR – Machlokes Mechaber & Rema
NM - Nafka Minah
S – Siman
SF – Se’if
SHUA – Shulchan Aruch
SK – Se’if Katan
WTM – What’s The Mekor (?)
YMMV – Your Minhag May Vary


Author Topic: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions  (Read 559541 times)

Offline EliJelly

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4760 on: November 29, 2020, 11:40:02 PM »
That otherwise it does not apply now.
I mentioned 2 requirements to be met, which one are you referring to?

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4761 on: November 29, 2020, 11:41:10 PM »
I mentioned 2 requirements to be met, which one are you referring to?
Both
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4762 on: November 29, 2020, 11:41:58 PM »
Why is it הטמנה and not bishul? Because it's in a bag?
The two aren't contradictory.
בישול isn't assur unless it's מיחזי כמבשל בשבת or שמא יחתה בגחלים.
הטמנה בדבר המוסיף הבל is assur regarless.

אין הטמנה באוכלים so I guess the water in the Sous Vide may be considered אוכלין

Sous Vide is more of הטמנה than anything we would commonly do nowadays because you would need to cover the food directly with somebody that increases the heat and doesn't only retain the heat.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline EliJelly

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4763 on: November 29, 2020, 11:44:46 PM »
Sous Vide is more of הטמנה than anything we would commonly do nowadays because you would need to cover the food directly with somebody that increases the heat and doesn't only retain the heat.
Cover with?

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4764 on: November 29, 2020, 11:50:04 PM »
Cover with?
Say, wrap a blanket around a pot. But a blanket only retains heat, it doesn't increase the heat. (Still can be an issue, just not as big).

A Sous Vide, prima facie, would be akin to placing food under burning charcoal that increases the heat of the food, which is הטמנה בדבר המוסיף הבל
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4766 on: November 29, 2020, 11:52:31 PM »
Say, wrap a blanket around a pot. But a blanket only retains heat, it doesn't increase the heat. (Still can be an issue, just not as big).

A Sous Vide, prima facie, would be akin to placing food under burning charcoal that increases the heat of the food, which is הטמנה בדבר המוסיף הבל
Correct, wrapping a blanket together with Sous vide could render it הטמנה בדבר המוסיף הבל.

Offline yesitsme

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4767 on: November 29, 2020, 11:52:51 PM »
Not if you put it in raw right before shabbos.
Fish? IIRC only meat that takes a while to cook, fish doesn't need more then 20 minutes
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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4768 on: November 29, 2020, 11:57:28 PM »
אין הטמנה באוכלים so I guess the water in the Sous Vide may be considered אוכלין
https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/משנה_ברורה_על_אורח_חיים_רנח

It appears the Mishna Berura doesn't consider hot water to be אוכלים for this purpose (although he's talking about a different scenario). I think other Achronim may disagree, but it can def be a real issue.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline EliJelly

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4769 on: November 29, 2020, 11:58:10 PM »
Both
If you give me your clear position I can respond accordingly.

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4770 on: November 29, 2020, 11:58:23 PM »
Correct, wrapping a blanket together with Sous vide could render it הטמנה בדבר המוסיף הבל.
You're missing the point. Putting the fish/chicken in the hot water is הטמנה. The hot water is like a blanket to the food.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4771 on: November 30, 2020, 12:03:22 AM »
Most scenarios of placing food on a hot plate/oven, especially nowadays, are going be Chumros at best. Important Chumros, but Chumros.

הטמנה is a full blown איסור דרבנן
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline EliJelly

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4772 on: November 30, 2020, 12:04:14 AM »
You're missing the point. Putting the fish/chicken in the hot water is הטמנה. The hot water is like a blanket to the food.
And how about putting the kugel wrapped in silver foil in the cholent pot?

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4773 on: November 30, 2020, 12:06:57 AM »
And how about putting the kugel wrapped in silver foil in the cholent pot?
I think the star k article linked above pointed out the difference between the two

Offline EliJelly

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4774 on: November 30, 2020, 12:08:29 AM »
Most scenarios of placing food on a hot plate/oven, especially nowadays, are going be Chumros at best. Important Chumros, but Chumros.

הטמנה is a full blown איסור דרבנן
איסורי דרבנן are in no way חומרות. They are גופי הלכות. Violating שהיה והטמנה sometimes even renders the food forbidden to eat.

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4775 on: November 30, 2020, 12:11:29 AM »
איסורי דרבנן are in no way חומרות. They are גופי הלכות. Violating שהיה והטמנה sometimes even renders the food forbidden to eat.
חס ושלום. My point was that most cases are not שהיה מעיקר הדין and are only a problem because we are Machmir to be חושש for Rishonim the Shu’a / Rama Pasken against.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4776 on: November 30, 2020, 12:12:09 AM »
And how about putting the kugel wrapped in silver foil in the cholent pot?
אין הטמנה באוכלים but it can definitely be an issue.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4777 on: November 30, 2020, 12:15:58 AM »
I think the star k article linked above pointed out the difference between the two
Which link?
It all depends what the reason of the covering is. Putting a bottle of baby formula entirely submerged in hot water surely is, while kugel in silver foil isn't (according to many poskim). The day will come when I'll start to use a Sous vide I'll need to figure out what purpose the bag serves and whether it's hatmanah even without being wrapped in a blanket.

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4778 on: November 30, 2020, 12:19:54 AM »
חס ושלום. My point was that most cases are not שהיה מעיקר הדין and are only a problem because we are Machmir to be חושש for Rishonim the Shu’a / Rama Pasken against.
Right, once it's k'machel ben drosuei.

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4779 on: November 30, 2020, 12:34:14 AM »
Right, once it's k'machel ben drosuei.
Or חי or גרוף וקטום
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים