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Some Lomdishe Acronyms For This Thread (Feel free to update the wiki as needed.)

AYLR – Ask Your Local Rabbi
KHLH – כל המקיל לא הפסיד
IMHnrO - In My Humble non-rabbinic Opinion
MB – Mishna Berura
MM - Mar'eh Makom
MMR – Machlokes Mechaber & Rema
NM - Nafka Minah
S – Siman
SF – Se’if
SHUA – Shulchan Aruch
SK – Se’if Katan
WTM – What’s The Mekor (?)
YMMV – Your Minhag May Vary


Author Topic: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions  (Read 559552 times)

Offline EliJelly

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4780 on: November 30, 2020, 12:37:19 AM »
Or חי or גרוף וקטום
גרוף וקטום is already the answer to the problem of שהיה :) we're looking when it isn't needed.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4781 on: November 30, 2020, 12:38:57 AM »
גרוף וקטום is already the answer to the problem of שהיה :)
Doesn’t always help according to some opinions that are ראוי להחמיר
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Yitzshpitz

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4782 on: November 30, 2020, 12:44:46 AM »
Fish? IIRC only meat that takes a while to cook, fish doesn't need more then 20 minutes

If the piece of meat/fish/chicken is raw and is in a pot or device that is designed to slow cook and will therefore certainly not allow the meat/fish to be cooked by Friday night meal, there is no issue of shihiya. Ive never heard of a distinction between meat, chicken or fish. The size  might be more of a factor to be machmir if its a small piece.

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4783 on: November 30, 2020, 01:00:43 AM »
If the piece of meat/fish/chicken is raw and is in a pot or device that is designed to slow cook and will therefore certainly not allow the meat/fish to be cooked by Friday night meal, there is no issue of shihiya. Ive never heard of a distinction between meat, chicken or fish. The size  might be more of a factor to be machmir if its a small piece.
I don’t know but I wouldn’t be so sure we don’t say לא פלוג רבנן by fish that would normally cook very quickly, although R Nissim Kareltiz apparently didn’t hold so
https://www.dirshu.co.il/היתר-קדרה-חייתא-באיסור-שהייה/

On the other hand it’s possible that salmon is edible raw and therefore always considered כמאכל בן דרוסאי or even מבושל כל צרכו, although I know some poskim say majority of people still don’t eat raw salmon
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Yitzshpitz

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4784 on: November 30, 2020, 01:16:10 AM »
I don’t know but I wouldn’t be so sure we don’t say לא פלוג רבנן by fish that would normally cook very quickly, although R Nissim Kareltiz apparently didn’t hold so
https://www.dirshu.co.il/היתר-קדרה-חייתא-באיסור-שהייה/

On the other hand it’s possible that salmon is edible raw and therefore always considered כמאכל בן דרוסאי or even מבושל כל צרכו, although I know some poskim say majority of people still don’t eat raw salmon
Interesting thanks for sharing. He even mentions that chicken would not qualify for kidra chysah. From my experiences, chicken and fish also take a long time to cook so if you permit meat then chicken and fish should also qualify. I cant remember the source but I believe poskim are more lenient by larger pieces because it takes longer to cook.

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4785 on: November 30, 2020, 01:17:33 AM »
Interesting thanks for sharing. He even mentions that chicken would not qualify for kidra chysah. From my experiences, chicken and fish also take a long time to cook so if you permit meat then chicken and fish should also qualify. I cant remember the source but I believe poskim are more lenient by larger pieces because it takes longer to cook.
The Gemara talks about meat. Anything else is a debatable extrapolation
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline EliJelly

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4786 on: November 30, 2020, 01:21:48 AM »
The Gemara talks about meat. Anything else is a debatable extrapolation
ירק חי is definitely not בכלל קידרא חייתא, everything in between would probably depend on the metzius - cooking device/method and size.

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4787 on: November 30, 2020, 01:36:51 AM »
ירק חי is definitely not בכלל קידרא חייתא, everything in between would probably depend on the metzius - cooking device/method and size.

If that is true then why would cholent, which contains raw potatoes and beans be permiteed to be put on a flame right before shabbos? I assume the heter applied to anything that takes a long time to cook and is slow cooked beacause that is the whole reasoning of kidra chysa.

The Gemara talks about meat. Anything else is a debatable extrapolation

Correct. But the reasoning of the heter would clearly be applicable to other items as well so a solid argument could be made to extend the specific ruling in the gemara


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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4788 on: November 30, 2020, 01:49:26 AM »
If that is true then why would cholent, which contains raw potatoes and beans be permiteed to be put on a flame right before shabbos? I assume the heter applied to anything that takes a long time to cook and is slow cooked beacause that is the whole reasoning of kidra chysa.

Correct. But the reasoning of the heter would clearly be applicable to other items as well so a solid argument could be made to extend the specific ruling in the gemara
I agree in principle although I wouldn’t be so sure Cholent can be placed right before shabbos without relying on the rishonim who hold גרופה וקטומה is muttar even without מאכל בן דרוסאי. If using the Heter of קדרא חייתא according to the Mishna Berura I believe it would only apply if the cholent doesn’t reach יד סולדת בו before shabbos, since the Heter only applies to placing it right before shabbos... .

The Chazon Ish ל׳ז כ׳ב does say the Heter of meat would apply even if it’s cooking quickly and he’s eating it for the Friday night meal since Chazal weren’t gozer on that. I don’t know if he also holds לא פלוג רבנן lechumra to prohibit fish that normally cooks quickly even in a manner that will take longer to cook.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4789 on: November 30, 2020, 01:51:08 AM »
One thing to add re Cholent is that שדא ביה גרמא, if one adds a bit of meat to it it all assumes the din of קידרא חייתא,
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline EliJelly

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4790 on: November 30, 2020, 01:55:52 AM »
If that is true then why would cholent, which contains raw potatoes and beans be permiteed to be put on a flame right before shabbos? I assume the heter applied to anything that takes a long time to cook and is slow cooked beacause that is the whole reasoning of kidra chysa.
ירק חי is clearly not בכלל קידרא חייתא according to the mg''a and all other poskim. Raw potatoes and beans in the cholent pot would still be muttar if the cholent has a raw piece of meat in it, as the gemara says "ואי שדי בה גרמא חייא שפיר דמי"

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4791 on: November 30, 2020, 06:20:06 AM »
A Sous Vide is perhaps the only cooking method where the heter of raw still applies today. The food is probably still in raw status at the shkiah, and the food can't be completely cooked for the Friday night seudah. (Assuming temperature can be raised too high, otherwise it would still require גו׳׳ק)
Crock pot?
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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4792 on: November 30, 2020, 09:02:54 AM »
I agree in principle although I wouldn’t be so sure Cholent can be placed right before shabbos without relying on the rishonim who hold גרופה וקטומה is muttar even without מאכל בן דרוסאי. If using the Heter of קדרא חייתא according to the Mishna Berura I believe it would only apply if the cholent doesn’t reach יד סולדת בו before shabbos, since the Heter only applies to placing it right before shabbos... .

The Chazon Ish ל׳ז כ׳ב does say the Heter of meat would apply even if it’s cooking quickly and he’s eating it for the Friday night meal since Chazal weren’t gozer on that. I don’t know if he also holds לא פלוג רבנן lechumra to prohibit fish that normally cooks quickly even in a manner that will take longer to cook.

I need to look up the Chazon Ish but the Orchos shabbos does mention that the Chazon Ish would apply kidra chysa even to water so long as the cooking device will not get that hot by shkia. i imagine he would hold the same would apply to other foods. It seems like according to this opinion its not necessarily dependent on the type of food alone but rather the speed at which it cooks in a specific cooking device or mechanism.

Also, Orchos Shabbos himself opines that even according to the opinions that vegetables dont qualify under kidra chysa, vegetables that take a while to cook (perhaps potatos/beans/carrots etc) are like meat and would fall under heter of kidra chysa. I think chicken and fish as well.


Offline aygart

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4793 on: November 30, 2020, 09:48:20 AM »
If you give me your clear position I can respond accordingly.
I take issue with your premise that things cook faster now than they used to.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline EliJelly

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4794 on: November 30, 2020, 10:16:11 AM »
I take issue with your premise that things cook faster now than they used to.
It's not my premise, many hold so for our ovens/ranges with it's capabilities, IIRC r' Nisim Kareliz points this out. Obviously this wouldn't apply for a Sous vide and maybe for a crockpot as well.
And with that you just addressed one part of my reasoning.

Offline aygart

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4795 on: November 30, 2020, 10:20:25 AM »
It's not my premise, many hold so for our ovens/ranges with it's capabilities, IIRC r' Nisim Kareliz points this out. Obviously this wouldn't apply for a Sous vide and maybe for a crockpot as well.
And with that you just addressed one part of my reasoning.
How does that make it not very debatable?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline EliJelly

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4796 on: November 30, 2020, 10:23:15 AM »
How does that make it not very debatable?
I didn't say it isn't debatable, I was pointing out that a Sous vide doesn't have this issue l'kula almo

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4797 on: November 30, 2020, 10:26:06 AM »
I didn't say it isn't debatable, I was pointing out that a Sous vide doesn't have this issue l'kula almo
Okay so then you agree with me. Great.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline EliJelly

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4798 on: November 30, 2020, 10:34:29 AM »
Okay so then you agree with me. Great.
Not so for point one, pretty clear in mg'a- according to what achronim are מדייק- it needs to be in raw status at sundown, we are mekabel shabbos earlier.

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Re: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions
« Reply #4799 on: November 30, 2020, 10:55:17 AM »
Not so for point one, pretty clear in mg'a- according to what achronim are מדייק- it needs to be in raw status at sundown, we are mekabel shabbos earlier.
We as in who?
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