Topic Wiki

Some Lomdishe Acronyms For This Thread (Feel free to update the wiki as needed.)

AYLR – Ask Your Local Rabbi
KHLH – כל המקיל לא הפסיד
IMHnrO - In My Humble non-rabbinic Opinion
MB – Mishna Berura
MM - Mar'eh Makom
MMR – Machlokes Mechaber & Rema
NM - Nafka Minah
S – Siman
SF – Se’if
SHUA – Shulchan Aruch
SK – Se’if Katan
WTM – What’s The Mekor (?)
YMMV – Your Minhag May Vary


Author Topic: All Halocha Shailos and Tiffeh Questions  (Read 950959 times)

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17399
  • Total likes: 14339
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #220 on: June 30, 2014, 07:56:11 PM »
Different if the kahal said barchu
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline incendia

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 1272
  • Total likes: 77
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #221 on: June 30, 2014, 10:02:27 PM »
Different if the kahal said barchu

Question or statement?

Offline joey123

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 1774
  • Total likes: 0
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Modern Mashgiach at Chovevei (YCT) #ResidentMashgiach
  • Programs: Daven for the Chayalim #IStandWithIsrael
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #222 on: June 30, 2014, 10:14:58 PM »
Question or statement?

Regardless. The K'hal saying Barchu signals your acceptance of shabbos (see Mishna Berura). Nowadays, certain people have Kavana during the last paragraph of lecha dodi. However, this doesn't pertain to our discussion as the questioner was asking about the status after a person does accept upon himself Shabbos.
To the nOObs out there, feel free to PM with q's. #AlwaysTakesTheHighRoad #LovesHashTags

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #223 on: July 01, 2014, 08:51:31 AM »
Tosfos shabbos is a deorayso. Melacha is an Issur asseh.
Question whether this also affects those who self accept earlier than the mandated tosfos time: M'b implies that a tziburs acceptance is deorayso. R'A Eiger holds its deorayso even for a yochid..


Etc etc!

Offline skyguy918

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 3810
  • Total likes: 826
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Queens, NY
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #224 on: July 01, 2014, 09:50:58 AM »
If I accept early shabbos, is the melacha that I do after wards de'oraisa or derabanan?
Not sure why everyone is discussing tosefes shabbos. Does that somehow affect the nature of the issur melacha that applies after accepting shabbos? (That's an actual question, as in I don't know - just to preempt the person that says 'you don't know what you're talking about, of course it affects...')

Either way, every source I've heard or learned on the topic of what to do when you're stuck before shabbos indicates to me that the contemporary poskim hold that melacha is d'rabonon until after bein hasmashos. The example I'm thinking of is the fact that you can have a goy drive you (eg taxi) up to a half hour (different poskim say different amounts of time) after shkia if it's l'tzorech mitzvah (like getting home for shabbos). The heter is that it's a shvus d'svhus, which is obviously only true if it's considered melacha d'rabonon during that time. Now if we're talking up to 30 minutes after shkia, you're certainly past the time the khal says borchu when they make early shabbos, and depending on the shul, even when they make regular time.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #225 on: July 01, 2014, 09:59:16 AM »
Not sure why everyone is discussing tosefes shabbos. Does that somehow affect the nature of the issur melacha that applies after accepting shabbos? (That's an actual question, as in I don't know - just to preempt the person that says 'you don't know what you're talking about, of course it affects...')


Yes, the gemara in Yuma learns out tosfes shabos and yom kippur from a posuk. The gemara explains that there is no kores but there would be an issur Asseh.






Offline clear thinker

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 2595
  • Total likes: 2
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #226 on: July 01, 2014, 10:27:52 AM »
Yes, the gemara in Yuma learns out tosfes shabos and yom kippur from a posuk. The gemara explains that there is no kores but there would be an issur Asseh.
but he was explaining that regardless of tosfes shaboos if a person accepts shabbos upon himself that alone is a problem.
think he's got avalid point

Offline skyguy918

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 3810
  • Total likes: 826
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Queens, NY
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #227 on: July 01, 2014, 10:35:28 AM »
Yes, the gemara in Yuma learns out tosfes shabos and yom kippur from a posuk. The gemara explains that there is no kores but there would be an issur Asseh.
How does that fit with the psak about getting stuck before shabbos? It's hard to imagine that if I accept shabbos 30 minutes before shkia, that doing melacha during the 30 minutes before shabbos is d'oraysa while doing melacha during the 30 minutes after shkia is d'rabonan.

Offline Ergel

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 12818
  • Total likes: 905
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #228 on: July 01, 2014, 10:40:24 AM »
Who told you melocho after shkia is d'rabanan?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #229 on: July 01, 2014, 10:57:19 AM »
How does that fit with the psak about getting stuck before shabbos? It's hard to imagine that if I accept shabbos 30 minutes before shkia, that doing melacha during the 30 minutes before shabbos is d'oraysa while doing melacha during the 30 minutes after shkia is d'rabonan.
I was just saying that the concept of tosfos shabbos is mideorayso. (As usual the devil is in the details.)

Tosfos shabbos according to many may only be for two minutes before vaday layla....
FWIU Self acceptance is not necessarily full tosfos shabbos.

Offline skyguy918

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 3810
  • Total likes: 826
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Queens, NY
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #230 on: July 01, 2014, 11:01:01 AM »
Who told you melocho after shkia is d'rabanan?
I gave you my rationale above. If I'm wrong, just tell me which part is wrong and why, don't beat around the bush.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #231 on: July 01, 2014, 11:05:29 AM »
I gave you my rationale above. If I'm wrong, just tell me which part is wrong and why, don't beat around the bush.
You are asking good, I have seen your specific question discussed, jus dont remember clearly the resolution...

Offline skyguy918

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 3810
  • Total likes: 826
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Queens, NY
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #232 on: July 01, 2014, 11:13:35 AM »
Just to make it explicit for Ergel, the Mechaber says it's mutar to tell a goy to light shabbos candles for you during bein hashmashos. I always assumed it's mutar because it's a shvus d'svhus (melacha during bein hashmashos is a shvus and amirah l'akum is a shvus). I can't find that explicitly anywhere, so I could be totally off here. If that's the case, just say so.

Offline clear thinker

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 2595
  • Total likes: 2
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #233 on: July 01, 2014, 11:24:42 AM »
Just to make it explicit for Ergel, the Mechaber says it's mutar to tell a goy to light shabbos candles for you during bein hashmashos. I always assumed it's mutar because it's a shvus d'svhus (melacha during bein hashmashos is a shvus and amirah l'akum is a shvus). I can't find that explicitly anywhere, so I could be totally off here. If that's the case, just say so.
I think u "are" right melacha after shekuah is a derabanan

Offline joey123

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 1774
  • Total likes: 0
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Modern Mashgiach at Chovevei (YCT) #ResidentMashgiach
  • Programs: Daven for the Chayalim #IStandWithIsrael
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #234 on: July 01, 2014, 11:48:19 AM »
I was just saying that the concept of tosfos shabbos is mideorayso. (As usual the devil is in the details.)

Tosfos shabbos according to many may only be for two minutes before vaday layla....
FWIU Self acceptance is not necessarily full tosfos shabbos.

I will check it up later. There are two deos in Tosfos in the beginning of Arvei Pesachim.
To the nOObs out there, feel free to PM with q's. #AlwaysTakesTheHighRoad #LovesHashTags

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #235 on: July 01, 2014, 12:39:04 PM »
There seems to be a very fundamental misunderstanding here:

Bein hashmoshos is sofek shabbos, and therefore all melochos are a sofek chiuv skeila.

Chazal were not gozer certain gezeiros during bein hashmoshos. This is why amira leakum can be permitted in limited cases.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #236 on: July 01, 2014, 12:40:07 PM »
I will check it up later. There are two deos in Tosfos in the beginning of Arvei Pesachim.
See M'b 261:19 Where he brings down the source that it is mideorayso. 

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #237 on: July 01, 2014, 12:43:30 PM »
Even if tosfos shabbos is mideorayso, for many dinim like: Mila, nidda, matza, succa, sefira it is not considered night.



/Nowback to work.

Offline Ergel

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 12818
  • Total likes: 905
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #238 on: July 01, 2014, 12:47:14 PM »
There seems to be a very fundamental misunderstanding here:

Bein hashmoshos is sofek shabbos, and therefore all melochos are a sofek chiuv skeila.

Chazal were not gozer certain gezeiros during bein hashmoshos. This is why amira leakum can be permitted in limited cases.
Yup.
Non-chasidim (and many chasidim as well) hold very shtark that shkia is the safek layla (or a din safek layla if you're a brisker) midaoraysa.
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17399
  • Total likes: 14339
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: All Halocha Shailos and teiffa Questions
« Reply #239 on: July 01, 2014, 06:16:51 PM »
There seems to be a very fundamental misunderstanding here:

Bein hashmoshos is sofek shabbos, and therefore all melochos are a sofek chiuv skeila.

Chazal were not gozer certain gezeiros during bein hashmoshos. This is why amira leakum can be permitted in limited cases.
and even those cannot be done after kabolas shabbos of the tzibur and according to MB 342:1 even if by a yachid. Therefore the MB says that this halacha will only apply in a place where there is no tzibur.
Feelings don't care about your facts