COVID-19 (Wuhan Novel Coronavirus) Pandemic Master Thread

[ExGingi]

What would the tzad heter be for someone to catch it intentionally?

Strengthen immune system. Help mental health. Allow more flexibility in כבוד אב ואם.

[CountValentine]

I wasn't referring to Covid, but the attitude in general. My first post ever on DDF was about pot being labeled a gateway drug. I believe that there is an inherent danger by lumping all drugs together, because when a person tries pot and it doesn't kill them or turn them into the caricature of a drug addict that was painted for them by the authority figures, they automatically downgrade the danger of all the other drugs that were associated with pot when they were being lectured about drugs. I feel that a similar attitude is emerging around Covid. In the beginning, due to a lack of knowledge, there was a certain amount of fear-mongering used in an effort to get everyone to take it seriously. The drawback is that now people are seeing they can survive this, and they don't care to get it. The fallacy with this thinking is that just because you crossed the street on a red once and didn't get hit by a car, doesn't mean you're Superman. Just because you tried heroin once and didn't overdose or get addicted, doesn't make heroin safe. And just because you survived a Covid infection once, doesn't mean your body will react the same way to subsequent infections.

To @ExGingi's point, that life is about risk assessment and finding a way to live with it, that's very fair. Not everyone should be holed up in their homes. But all risks are not equal. Precautions regarding Covid are not just about your personal risk, but the risk you present to the general public by walking around with a contagious infection. This is not deciding whether or not to wear a seatbelt. This is smoking in an indoor public room. You are free to risk your life by smoking. You are not free to expose everyone else in the room to your second-hand smoke.

Makes sense but you are wrong about pot. 

[aygart]

Strengthen immune system.

Not even speculative.. This is stam made up.

Help mental health.

It improves mental health?

Allow more flexibility in כבוד אב ואם.

I don't even see the shaylo.

[Lurker]

Makes sense but you are wrong about pot. 

I'm not. I didn't say it doesn't lead to other drug use, which it sometimes does, but the labeling is dangerous and causes more harm than good. But that's a conversation for a different thread.

[elazarmn]

Makes sense but you are wrong about pot. 

Amazing how one can minimize such a well written point by making a joke on one thing

Hope you understood his point! Lol (hint...it wasn’t about pot)

[ExGingi]

I wasn't referring to Covid, but the attitude in general. My first post ever on DDF was about pot being labeled a gateway drug. I believe that there is an inherent danger by lumping all drugs together, because when a person tries pot and it doesn't kill them or turn them into the caricature of a drug addict that was painted for them by the authority figures, they automatically downgrade the danger of all the other drugs that were associated with pot when they were being lectured about drugs. I feel that a similar attitude is emerging around Covid. In the beginning, due to a lack of knowledge, there was a certain amount of fear-mongering used in an effort to get everyone to take it seriously. The drawback is that now people are seeing they can survive this, and they don't care to get it. The fallacy with this thinking is that just because you crossed the street on a red once and didn't get hit by a car, doesn't mean you're Superman. Just because you tried heroin once and didn't overdose or get addicted, doesn't make heroin safe. And just because you survived a Covid infection once, doesn't mean your body will react the same way to subsequent infections.

To @ExGingi's point, that life is about risk assessment and finding a way to live with it, that's very fair. Not everyone should be holed up in their homes. But all risks are not equal. Precautions regarding Covid are not just about your personal risk, but the risk you present to the general public by walking around with a contagious infection. This is not deciding whether or not to wear a seatbelt. This is smoking in an indoor public room. You are free to risk your life by smoking. You are not free to expose everyone else in the room to your second-hand smoke.

Well stated. The first paragraph harps on a theme I've brought up several times of the changing narrative (along with dishonesty and lack of humility). SENSIBLE precautions would be adhered to much better if indeed they were well communicated, planned and thought through (I've pointed to Singapore giving out masks to everyone), and properly measured and constantly reassessed. If you tell everyone we're going to restrict you until there's a vaccine, it simply won't work.

But if you tell everyone to take certain logical measures that aren't a total lockdown, and make it as easy as possible for people to follow and as hard as possible for people to abuse (by price gouging, etc.), telling them that it's about FLATTENING THE CURVE a.k.a. SLOWING THE SPREAD while treatment modalities improve, and vaccine research is progressing, you would be much more likely to get compliance.

As for risking others - as I pointed out to @Ergel, I think that could be avoided with controlled deliberate exposure.

[Lurker]

Well stated. The first paragraph harps on a theme I've brought up several times of the changing narrative (along with dishonesty and lack of humility). SENSIBLE precautions would be adhered to much better if indeed they were well communicated, planned and thought through (I've pointed to Singapore giving out masks to everyone), and properly measured and constantly reassessed. If you tell everyone we're going to restrict you until there's a vaccine, it simply won't work.

But if you tell everyone to take certain logical measures that aren't a total lockdown, and make it as easy as possible for people to follow and as hard as possible for people to abuse (by price gouging, etc.), telling them that it's about FLATTENING THE CURVE a.k.a. SLOWING THE SPREAD while treatment modalities improve, and vaccine research is progressing, you would be much more likely to get compliance.

So let's forget the government narratives and start our own right here. Widespread mask usage slows the spread and saves lives. Even if you are low-risk for reinfection, wearing a mask makes it more likely that everyone (or more people) will comply. That's the DDF narrative. Spread the word.

As for risking others - as I pointed out to @Ergel, I think that could be avoided with controlled deliberate exposure.

Except you don't know the effects that deliberate exposure can cause, especially if it's repeated multiple times. I'm not sure how the science on this makes sense.

[CountValentine]

I'm not. I didn't say it doesn't lead to other drug use, which it sometimes does, but the labeling is dangerous and causes more harm than good. But that's a conversation for a different thread.

You should ask what I meant instead of assuming the wrong thing but for a different thread. 

[S209]

Indeed there were (based on what is publicly known), though the rate is by far less than 1/1000 for young people without any underlying conditions.

What would I do if I never had it? As I said before, I don't know. Now that I've had it, I have 0 fear of catching it again, even if it will be accompanied by symptoms. Whether I would do it, might be a question to ask my LOR.

Are you saying less than 1/1000 young healthy adults who’ve contracted COVID have ended up in the ICU?

Because that could help explain some of your attitude- you’re misinformed.

[ckmk47]

Are you saying less than 1/1000 young healthy adults who’ve contracted COVID have ended up in the ICU?

Because that could help explain some of your attitude- you’re misinformed.

We have to define 'healthy young adults'.  Overweight, pre-diabetic doesn't count.  And in Jewish media, we hear nebach of yesomim from a covid victim who was 'healthy' and died.  But his picture puts him in a risk group.

[S209]

We have to define 'healthy young adults'.  Overweight, pre-diabetic doesn't count.  And in Jewish media, we hear nebach of yesomim from a covid victim who was 'healthy' and died.  But his picture puts him in a risk group.

I know quite a few people who are healthy and young and were hospitalized. Zero prior health issues (that they’ve told me). Ask Hatzalah just how often they’ve seen this.

[CountValentine]

Coronavirus Deaths to Reach Nearly 210,000 by November, Model Projects
Some 45,000 lives could be saved over the next four months if nearly everyone wore a mask in public, new modeling shows.
https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2020-07-07/coronavirus-deaths-to-reach-nearly-210-000-by-november-model-projects

What is the presidents plan? Open all schools. How many must die before everyone wakes up?

[Yard sale]

Coronavirus Deaths to Reach Nearly 210,000 by November, Model Projects
Some 45,000 lives could be saved over the next four months if nearly everyone wore a mask in public, new modeling shows.
https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2020-07-07/coronavirus-deaths-to-reach-nearly-210-000-by-november-model-projects

What is the presidents plan? Open all schools. How many must die before everyone wakes up?

Is the new model any better than the multitude of models whose predictions were laughable earlier in the pandemic?

[ExGingi]

Are you saying less than 1/1000 young healthy adults who’ve contracted COVID have ended up in the ICU?

Because that could help explain some of your attitude- you’re misinformed.

1. I didn't use the term "healthy adults" I wrote "healthy people". But even if we go with "healthy adults" then
2. Take Crown Heights as an example where anywhere between 60%-80% of the community of over 4,000 families (and hundreds of bochurim learning here) contracted COVID-19. How many "healthy young adults" (what's your cutoff age) ended up in the ICU?

And 3.

I know quite a few people who are healthy and young and were hospitalized. Zero prior health issues (that they’ve told me).

I hope you realize how clueless you are about people's health issues. I've learned a lot in my line of business. There are so many people with health issues (some of which you've never heard of) that you will be surprised (and there's nothing you could tell by just looking at them).

[CountValentine]

Is the new model any better than the multitude of models whose predictions were laughable earlier in the pandemic?

This is one of the WH's go to models. What predictions were laughable?
Would you like to bet against this models predictions?

[CountValentine]

I hope you realize how clueless you are about people's health issues. I've learned a lot in my line of business. There are so many people with health issues (some of which you've never heard of) that you will be surprised (and there's nothing you could tell by just looking at them).

You don't even need to be in your line of business. 

[Afrages6]

This is one of the WH's go to models. What predictions were laughable?
Would you like to bet against this models predictions?

This model predicted 40k ventilators would be needed in NY and 140k hospital beds would be needed. That was laughable and probably led to the nursing home crisis which caused around 10k deaths.

[Euclid]

1. I didn't use the term "healthy adults" I wrote "healthy people". But even if we go with "healthy adults" then
2. Take Crown Heights as an example where anywhere between 60%-80% of the community of over 4,000 families (and hundreds of bochurim learning here) contracted COVID-19. How many "healthy young adults" (what's your cutoff age) ended up in the ICU?

And 3.I hope you realize how clueless you are about people's health issues. I've learned a lot in my line of business. There are so many people with health issues (some of which you've never heard of) that you will be surprised (and there's nothing you could tell by just looking at them).

Serious question, based on your experience how common is prediabetes/type 2 diabetes in relatively young frum people?

[CountValentine]

This model predicted 40k ventilators would be needed in NY and 140k hospital beds would be needed. That was laughable and probably led to the nursing home crisis which caused around 10k deaths.

You sure you have the right model? You have a link?

[Afrages6]

You sure you have the right model? You have a link?

Positive. I could find it later.