COVID-19 (Wuhan Novel Coronavirus) Pandemic Master Thread

[ckmk47]

For there to be NO new cases, we’d need to keep everyone in lockdown with zero movement outside for 2 weeks.  All who aren’t sick are now free to go.  Those homes that exhibit illness should have the sick person removed and the rest be kept locked down for another 2 weeks to see if there are new cases.
But that’s not what our lockdown was or can be.  Essential personnel were moving from covid areas to non and back. Besides all those who were noncompliant.
Until when do we shelter in place?  What is the endpoint of the lockdown?  What is changing in the next few weeks, months?  A vaccine may be as close as a few months away or as far as years. 
The government’s original goal was to ‘flatten the curve’, to keep the healthcare system from being too overwhelmed to care for too many sick people at once. Whether that was truly accomplished is debatable.
So now we’re at a point where many have had it.  We know more about it, and realize that healthy, non-obese people under about 40 have a minimal risk of serious effects from covid. 
Do we truly need to keep everyone locked down ad infinitum?  Those who had it a while ago and healthy young people, are  only infinitesimally at risk if they’re exposed to covid. Let them go out and get exposed and get sick or not.   

We should keep the vulnerable in lockdown! They should have groceries delivered to them carefully. They shouldn’t go to shul or work. 
We don’t need to continue to stress our young families by keeping them isolated and minimally educated.
We don’t need to continue to harm our economy by keeping all means of production shuttered.  A tanked economy will have devastating effects of those same people who’s lives you’re trying to save by continuing the lockdown. 

I realize, S209, that you must have lost someone important to you.  For that I wish you a nechama.  But a continued lockdown is not the answer.

[S209]

For there to be NO new cases, we’d need to keep everyone in lockdown with zero movement outside for 2 weeks.  All who aren’t sick are now free to go.  Those homes that exhibit illness should have the sick person removed and the rest be kept locked down for another 2 weeks to see if there are new cases.
But that’s not what our lockdown was or can be.  Essential personnel were moving from covid areas to non and back. Besides all those who were noncompliant.
Until when do we shelter in place?  What is the endpoint of the lockdown?  What is changing in the next few weeks, months?  A vaccine may be as close as a few months away or as far as years. 
The government’s original goal was to ‘flatten the curve’, to keep the healthcare system from being too overwhelmed to care for too many sick people at once. Whether that was truly accomplished is debatable.
So now we’re at a point where many have had it.  We know more about it, and realize that healthy, non-obese people under about 40 have a minimal risk of serious effects from covid. 
Do we truly need to keep everyone locked down ad infinitum?  Those who had it a while ago and healthy young people, are  only infinitesimally at risk if they’re exposed to covid. Let them go out and get exposed and get sick or not.   

We should keep the vulnerable in lockdown! They should have groceries delivered to them carefully. They shouldn’t go to shul or work. 
We don’t need to continue to stress our young families by keeping them isolated and minimally educated.
We don’t need to continue to harm our economy by keeping all means of production shuttered.  A tanked economy will have devastating effects of those same people who’s lives you’re trying to save by continuing the lockdown. 

I realize, S209, that you must have lost multiple people who are important to you.  For that I wish you a nechama.  But a continued lockdown is not the answer.

FTFY

Thank you.

Out of curiosity, are you coming from a Torah perspective or a secular perspective? You personally think we as a community should be doing this, or you think this should be the government’s universal position? Because the two are not the same. There’s what’s acceptable to a government and there’s what’s acceptable to you as a human being. It’s horrifying to think you are accepting of a certain amount of deaths in your community because of the (not halachically befonov) less quantifiable economic ramifications.

[S209]

FTFY

Thank you.

Out of curiosity, are you coming from a Torah perspective or a secular perspective? You personally think we as a community should be doing this, or you think this should be the government’s universal position? Because the two are not the same. There’s what’s acceptable to a government and there’s what’s acceptable to you as a human being. It’s horrifying to think you are accepting of a certain amount of deaths in your community because of the (not halachically befonov) less quantifiable economic ramifications.

I’m not picking apart your post piece by piece, I’m just asking you the question to understand what angle you are coming from when you say these things.

[ckmk47]

Each person is a precious world and I don't want to seem to minimize that.  But I don't see there realistically being zero deaths. As of now, there is no reasonable endpoint to the lockdown. When do you think we should open up?

An economic meltdown is devastating in a different way, but nonetheless devastating.  People loose their businesses and livelihood and retirement funds and future economic stability. That's anxiety, depression and family strife.  These things cause actual harm.

I think the trade off is halachik.  What harm should we do to the community to save people from their own behavior?  It is time to have the who people who are at risk hide out and free the rest of society.

[S209]

Each person is a precious world and I don't want to seem to minimize that.  But I don't see there realistically being zero deaths. As of now, there is no reasonable endpoint to the lockdown. When do you think we should open up?

An economic meltdown is devastating in a different way, but nonetheless devastating.  People loose their businesses and livelihood and retirement funds and future economic stability. That's anxiety, depression and family strife.  These things cause actual harm.

I think the trade off is halachik.  What harm should we do to the community to save people from their own behavior?  It is time to have the who people who are at risk hide out and free the rest of society.

So just to be clear, you are advocating for the Jewish community to end the lockdown for the young and healthy and come up with a plan to protect those 40 and over completely, from a Halachic point of view? Assuming that’s possible (I don’t think that’s remotely possible).

[CountValentine]

IL gov gets a win after a loss last week.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/federal-judge-upholds-gov-jb-pritzker-s-stay-at-home-order-denies-restraining-order-sought-by-northwest-illinois-church/ar-BB13zTrN?ocid=hplocalnews

[ckmk47]

So just to be clear, you are advocating for the Jewish community to end the lockdown for the young and healthy and come up with a plan to protect those 40 and over completely, from a Halachic point of view? Assuming that’s possible (I don’t think that’s remotely possible).

When do you think the quarantine should be lifted?  What endpoint do you want?  What criteria should we use?

[S209]

When do you think the quarantine should be lifted?  What endpoint do you want?  What criteria should we use?

I didn’t say my point, I am asking you for yours first

[ckmk47]

I don't know what will change in the next while as far as covid goes.  soI am advocating for the Jewish community to end the lockdown for the young and healthy and come up with a plan to protect those approximately 40 and over.
Only with government sanction.

[S209]

I don't know what will change in the next while as far as covid goes.  soI am advocating for the Jewish community to end the lockdown for the young and healthy and come up with a plan to protect those approximately 40 and over.
Only with government sanction.

So you think that from a purely *Torah* point of view, leaving aside the fact that each minute of life is precious so even just delaying an inevitable demise is worth the world, we in Jewish communities should accept more people dying, possibly far more (we don’t know yet) because of the economy etc.? I’m asking, not arguing.

[Yehudaa]

Ouch. Airbnb is laying off 1,900 of its 7,500 employees permanently (~25% of it's staff). CEO Brian Chesky wrote this note.

I have to say I think they're doing this as nicely as possible, IMHO. I don't know how the severance/equity/healthcare stacks up against industry standards, but this stood out as nice, especially the laptop.

Our goal is to connect our teammates leaving Airbnb with new job opportunities. Here are five ways we can help:

-Alumni Talent Directory — We will be launching a public-facing website to help teammates leaving find new jobs. Departing employees can opt-in to have profiles, resumes, and work samples accessible to potential employers.
-Alumni Placement Team — For the remainder of 2020, a significant portion of Airbnb Recruiting will become an Alumni Placement Team. Recruiters that are staying with Airbnb will provide support to departing employees to help them find their next job.
-RiseSmart — We are offering four months of career services through RiseSmart, a company that specializes in career transition and job placement services.
-Employee Offered Alumni Support — We are encouraging all remaining employees to opt-in to a program to assist departing teammates find their next role.
-Laptops — A computer is an important tool to find new work, so we are allowing everyone leaving to keep their Apple laptops.

And this:

I am truly sorry. Please know this is not your fault.

[S209]

Ouch. Airbnb is laying off 1,900 of its 7,500 employees permanently (~25% of it's staff). CEO Brian Chesky wrote this note.

I have to say I think they're doing this as nicely as possible, IMHO. I don't know how the severance/equity/healthcare stacks up against industry standards, but this stood out as nice, especially the laptop.

And this:

Brutal. I personally have an intense dislike of Airbnb but the note was really well written and touching.

[Iz]

Brutal. I personally have an intense dislike of Airbnb

because?

[S209]

because?

Anti-Semitic policies

[Iz]

Anti-Semitic policies

link?

[S209]

link?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bizcarson/2018/12/11/airbnb-cracked-down-on-listings-before-because-of-politics-but-its-west-bank-decision-was-different--and-its-creating-a-headache/#1f5ac1ab6a1b

[Iz]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bizcarson/2018/12/11/airbnb-cracked-down-on-listings-before-because-of-politics-but-its-west-bank-decision-was-different--and-its-creating-a-headache/#1f5ac1ab6a1b

Wow! Glad I never used them.

[Kobe Bryant]

So you think that from a purely *Torah* point of view, leaving aside the fact that each minute of life is precious so even just delaying an inevitable demise is worth the world, we in Jewish communities should accept more people dying, possibly far more (we don’t know yet) because of the economy etc.? I’m asking, not arguing.

I am not coming from a halchic perspective.
I will leave the "Pure Tora POV" to the Rabonim.
If we are to assume that nothing will change in the near future, in terms of therapeutics or a vaccine ( an artificial herd immunity) we must face it and try to return society to some type of normalcy...
Every public policy takes into acct. the fact that there are downsides, so we shouldn't make believe that now is any different.

Please let's stop presuming that anyone with a different opinion cares less about lives then those advocating for a continued lockdown.

[ckmk47]

S209, When do you think the quarantine should be lifted?  What endpoint do you want?  What criteria should we use?

[CountValentine]

If we are to assume that nothing will change in the near future, in terms of therapeutics or a vaccine ( an artificial herd immunity) we must face it and try to return society to some type of normalcy...

The assumption is thing will change in the next 6 months or so.