US Politics/2020 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread

[Lurker]

What is the death rate now?

Where? And how does that mean the government is handling things better?

[aygart]

So let me clarify: the issue was not with public hospitals, because people were dying everywhere. The issue was lack of medical knowledge. To pretend that this is all on local Democrat-run governments is partisan and dishonest.

Maybe, and that would exonerate all levels of government, but sending infected patients back to nursing homes was brainless and that is one item which the Governors who implemented that should be held accountable for.

[Lurker]

Why are you under the impression that miamondies had lots of patients dying?? Brooklyn was not very hard hit at all compared to other neighborhoods. But sure just make things up.
https://nypost.com/2020/05/05/coronavirus-nurse-says-negligence-has-patients-dying-at-nyc-hospitals/
At the peak of the pandemic in April, the data suggests, patients at some community hospitals were three times more likely to die as patients at medical centers in the wealthiest parts of the city.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/01/nyregion/Coronavirus-hospitals.html

First of all:

Sirotek never mentioned which hospitals she’d been working in.

Second, your point is that private care is better than public care? What does that have to do with local government being responsible for all the early Covid deaths?

Third, the higher death rate among minorities has been replicated everywhere, and has largely been attributed to comorbidities. It very likely also may be influenced by inferior care due to socio-economic standing, but why is that on local government?

[aygart]

Where? And how does that mean the government is handling things better?

You made a claim of us being much worse off than these other places. If our death rate, however you were measuring it, is better than those other countries then we are now much better off.

[Lurker]

Maybe, and that would exonerate all levels of government, but sending infected patients back to nursing homes was brainless and that is one item which the Governors who implemented that should be held accountable for.

I am by no means exonerating mistakes made by local governments,  but to say that the reason for the overall higher death rate is on them is just wrong, especially when you factor in how treatment has evolved over the last 5 months.

[CountValentine]

You made a claim of us being much worse off than these other places. If our death rate, however you were measuring it, is better than those other countries then we are now much better off.

Our death rate based on per capita is terrible compared to other countries. Doesn't that show we have done a terrible job?

[aygart]

I am by no means exonerating mistakes made by local governments,  but to say that the reason for the overall higher death rate is on them is just wrong, especially when you factor in how treatment has evolved over the last 5 months.

Both of you need to provide real numbers.

[CountValentine]

Both of you need to provide real numbers.

Is this good?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

[aygart]

Our death rate based on per capita is terrible compared to other countries. Doesn't that show we have done a terrible job?

Compared to SOME other countries.

[CountValentine]

Compared to SOME other countries.

When we are #8 shouldn't SOME be MOST? 

[Lurker]

You made a claim of us being much worse off than these other places. If our death rate, however you were measuring it, is better than those other countries then we are now much better off.

1: I think you agree that deaths are not the only metric when calculating the damage of this pandemic. In addition to the economic impact, there are long-term health concerns that need to be taken into account. If they are seeing new infection rates at a fraction of ours, I'd say they're winning.

2: With regards to the actual death rate comparison, I can look it up when I'm by a computer, but there are no good numbers to use. Every country is using different metrics and different reporting timelines. FL is still reporting deaths from May.

[Lurker]

Both of you need to provide real numbers.

What numbers would you like to see?

[CountValentine]

Is this good?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

How about this: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/coronavirus/
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/where-the-u-s-ranks-in-covid-19-deaths-per-capita/
https://covid19dashboards.com/covid-compare-permillion/

[aygart]

1: I think you agree that deaths are not the only metric when calculating the damage of this pandemic. In addition to the economic impact, there are long-term health concerns that need to be taken into account. If they are seeing new infection rates at a fraction of ours, I'd say they're winning.

2: With regards to the actual death rate comparison, I can look it up when I'm by a computer, but there are no good numbers to use. Every country is using different metrics and different reporting timelines. FL is still reporting deaths from May.

I know, but the successes in stopping virus spread have been very few and far between even with new outbreaks. There does not seem to be any real solution to prevent it over the long term short of a full lockdown until there is a vaccine actually administered to enough of the population. It does seem clear that we are doing a MUCH better job of treating it. The biggest difference between NY/NJ and FL/TX seems to be the nursing home policy. In general, better survival rates WORLDWIDE are likely to be able to be credited to the US. After ravaging through China they had nothing to offer the world. After a few months here we have been able to cut death rates exponentially.

[aygart]

What numbers would you like to see?

City hospital vs private.

[CountValentine]

In general, better survival rates WORLDWIDE are likely to be able to be credited to the US.

Now your turn, source? 

[zh cohen]

Deaths have skyrocketed in TX/FL and most red states.

And CA where they never reopened...

But

You are going to cherry pick what fits your Kool-Aid.

[Lurker]

I know, but the successes in stopping virus spread have been very few and far between even with new outbreaks. There does not seem to be any real solution to prevent it over the long term short of a full lockdown until there is a vaccine actually administered to enough of the population. It does seem clear that we are doing a MUCH better job of treating it. The biggest difference between NY/NJ and FL/TX seems to be the nursing home policy. In general, better survival rates WORLDWIDE are likely to be able to be credited to the US. After ravaging through China they had nothing to offer the world. After a few months here we have been able to cut death rates exponentially.

1: The science is better all-around, which leads to better treatment protocols and fewer deaths. The decrease in prophylactic intubations are a huge driver in the survival rate. Additionally, the medications available now don't compare with what early hit states had to work with. Remdesivir and steroids are now standard protocol. I don't know how much our treatments vary from those available in Europe, but comparing US treatment in August and US treatment in March... I don't think there's a rational argument to be made there.

2: If 40+% of FL's deaths are from LTCF, and NY's numbers are similar, how can that be the biggest difference?

[aygart]

Now your turn, source? 

https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&safe=active&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS745US745&sxsrf=ALeKk03LjgEDp09VrXFiaMLKzRKNydSxBg%3A1596661292957&ei=LB4rX7f4OaOyytMP2bGCwAM&q=covid+mortality+rate+down&oq=covid+mortality+rate+down&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzICCAAyBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjoECAAQRzoECCMQJzoHCCMQ6gIQJzoFCAAQkQI6BAgAEEM6BwgAELEDEEM6BQgAELEDOgoIABCxAxAUEIcCOggIABCxAxCDAVCM5xNYqsQUYN_SFGgBcAF4BIABrgSIAaEzkgEJMzEuMjguNS0xmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdperABCsABAQ&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwi3vsXp-oTrAhUjmXIEHdmYADgQ4dUDCAw&uact=5

[Sam Finkelstein]

I have no idea what you are referring to, link.

https://youtu.be/nyq55Nzm4sg