US Politics/2020 Election Pick Your Poison Master Thread

[yungermanchik]

Totally unfair. You assumed like you always do.

No, there many post where you praise individuals for being "strong independent women" so you clearly consider that to be a positive. I don't think that's assuming. Where did I go wrong?

[CountValentine]

The "attacks" were when you lumped strong together with independent. Once you asked it separately, the same member who "attacked" you answered very civilly.

"Strong independent" is used all the time. Some take it to mean the same, some believe independent is part of being strong. Not sure why you would take my question as being negative.

Lets try this.
I see Jewish orthodox women as being more modest than women from say a big city. Is that ignorance, stereotype, bigotry or fact?

[CountValentine]

No, there many post where you praise individuals for being "strong independent women" so you clearly consider that to be a positive. I don't think that's assuming. Where did I go wrong?

Can you point were I "praised" them. I don't recall doing that.

[yungermanchik]

"Strong independent" is used all the time. Some take it to mean the same, some believe independent is part of being strong. Not sure why you would take my question as being negative.

Lets try this.
I see Jewish orthodox women as being more modest than women from say a big city. Is that ignorance, stereotype, bigotry or fact?

Fact

[CountValentine]

Fact

Now I am totally confused. I ask two identical questions (different subject) and one is fact and the other makes me a bigot. 

[yungermanchik]

Now I am totally confused. I ask two identical questions (different subject) and one is fact and the other makes me a bigot. 

Modesty is a virtue so saying a community has virtues is not bigoted but rather is taken as praise.
Strong is also considered to be a virtue, so when someone implies that those who are dependent are lacking in strength and that this lack is found in a community, that is seen as bigoted.

[CountValentine]

Modesty is a virtue so saying a community has virtues is not bigoted but rather is taken as praise.
Strong is also considered to be a virtue, so when someone implies that those who are dependent are lacking in strength and that this lack is found in a community, that is seen as bigoted.

So I am a bigot based on what a community feels is virtue or not. Now there is fair and balanced. 
How about being independent, is that a positive or negative virtue?

[Lurker]

So you don't celebrate it and the outside world doesn't see it. Wouldn't it be logical for the outside world to come to the conclusion that there is less independence?

There's an old joke, dating back to the USSR.
A Communist teacher has a Jew in his class, and he takes great joy in showing the child how misguided religion is. One day, the teacher holds up an apple and asks the class, "Class! What is in my hand?"
The class responds, "An apple!"
"And how do you know this apple exists?"
"Because we see it in Teacher's hand!"
"Very good," says the teacher. "Now this pencil. How do you know that it exists?"
"Because we see it, Comrade Teacher," the class answers.
"Right again," the teacher proclaims. "And now class, tell me: do any of you see God?"
The class answers in unison, "No, Comrade Teacher!"
"And why is that," goads the teacher.
"Because God does not exist!"
The young Jew stands up and says, "Class, can anyone see the teacher's intelligence?"

[Toasted]

Strong and independent means one who stands up against popular and convenient groupthink. Not sure how/why KH fits that.

Here's a brave black woman... Strong and independent too.
https://twitter.com/kimKBaltimore/status/1295461903268040707

[CountValentine]

Strong and independent means one who stands up against popular and convenient groupthink. Not sure how/why KH fits that.

Here's a brave black woman... Strong and independent too.

So that is what strong and independent means. I have been in several Jewish communities and haven't seen that. Thanks for proving my point. 

[Lurker]

So you don't celebrate it and the outside world doesn't see it. Wouldn't it be logical for the outside world to come to the conclusion that there is less independence?

Throughout history, Jews have been strong and independent, both as a nation and as individuals. To this day, and dating back centuries, many communities send their children away to other cities and countries to study. It is more common for this to occur starting in high school, but I have friends who left home as early as 8 years old. Due to the family size and structure, children as young as 9 or 10 are tasked with responsibilities such as taking care of younger siblings, making food for the family, and general household tasks such as cleaning and laundry. If you walk through many Orthodox neighborhoods, it is not uncommon to see a gaggle of children being led down the street by a sibling who is not yet a teenager. In many of these communities, the woman is primary breadwinner, while also tasked with the jobs of mother and homemaker. A trip down our main thoroughfares will lead you past stores, owned and operated by women. Many of the stores without a female face have women as the brains and grease of the operation. If anyone took the time to look, they would have to be blind not to see the strength and independence found throughout our community, especially in our mothers and sisters, in our wives and daughters.

DDF's Covid Unemployment thread is run by a woman. You wouldn't know that, hearing everyone speak of that thread. That's because they talk about the virtues she extols that matter to us: immense kindness, charity, patience, devotion, efficiency, competence. Her gender is irrelevant, as is any independence she may or may not have. Just because we don't put it on a pedestal for the world to see, doesn't mean it does not exist. You just need to take the time to look.

[Lurker]

Now I am totally confused. I ask two identical questions (different subject) and one is fact and the other makes me a bigot. 

I didn't call you a bigot. I said you were stereotyping. Bigots tend to use stereotypes to support their bigotry, but the act of stereotyping itself is not bigotry. It's ignorance.

[Lurker]

Strong and independent can mean one who stands up against popular and convenient groupthink.

FTFY. There are many ways those traits can be exhibited.

[CountValentine]

Throughout history, Jews have been strong and independent, both as a nation and as individuals. To this day, and dating back centuries, many communities send their children away to other cities and countries to study. It is more common for this to occur starting in high school, but I have friends who left home as early as 8 years old. Due to the family size and structure, children as young as 9 or 10 are tasked with responsibilities such as taking care of younger siblings, making food for the family, and general household tasks such as cleaning and laundry. If you walk through many Orthodox neighborhoods, it is not uncommon to see a gaggle of children being led down the street by a sibling who is not yet a teenager. In many of these communities, the woman is primary breadwinner, while also tasked with the jobs of mother and homemaker. A trip down our main thoroughfares will lead you past stores, owned and operated by women. Many of the stores without a female face have women as the brains and grease of the operation. If anyone took the time to look, they would have to be blind not to see the strength and independence found throughout our community, especially in our mothers and sisters, in our wives and daughters.

DDF's Covid Unemployment thread is run by a woman. You wouldn't know that, hearing everyone speak of that thread. That's because they talk about the virtues she extols that matter to us: immense kindness, charity, patience, devotion, efficiency, competence. Her gender is irrelevant, as is any independence she may or may not have. Just because we don't put it on a pedestal for the world to see, doesn't mean it does not exist. You just need to take the time to look.

Would it be fair to say you are looking from the inside out and the rest of us from the outside in?

Just so there is no confusing. I never said it didn't exist.

[Lurker]

Would it be fair to say you are looking from the inside out and the rest of us from the outside in?

Absolutely. That doesn't change the fact that you not seeing it doesn't negate its existence. Ask outsiders who have spent even a little time in our communities, and they will tell you that these traits are readily apparent if you choose to look for them. You can read any number of articles documenting the same findings, as well.

[CountValentine]

I didn't call you a bigot. I said you were stereotyping. Bigots tend to use stereotypes to support their bigotry, but the act of stereotyping itself is not bigotry. It's ignorance.

I didn't say "you" called me a bigot. So I am ignorant and stereotypes, got it. 

Who you consider a women in her late forties, living by herself, no children and running a major company strong and independent?

[CountValentine]

Absolutely. That doesn't change the fact that you not seeing it doesn't negate its existence. Ask outsiders who have spent even a little time in our communities, and they will tell you that these traits are readily apparent if you choose to look for them. You can read any number of articles documenting the same findings, as well.

You don't think I spent a "little" time in your communities?

[Lurker]

Just so there is no confusing. I never said it didn't exist.

No, you said you don't see it. All I'm saying is that just because you don't see it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

I don't see Jewish orthodox women as independent as women from say a big city.

[Lurker]

I didn't say "you" called me a bigot. So I am ignorant and stereotypes, got it. 

Don't take the ignorance personally. We are all ignorant about many things. You do stereotype, however.

Who you consider a women in her late forties, living by herself, no children and running a major company strong and independent?

No. I have no idea if she's either of those things. And neither do you.

[Lurker]

You don't think I spent a "little" time in your communities?

these traits are readily apparent if you choose to look for them.