World Zionist Organization

[mevinyavin]

Not sure why.
Are you quoting R' Berkowitz?

I personally heard him give a shiur in which he said that one cannot presume to know what a Gadol would think about anything without asking him directly, adding, "Even Yosef Hatzaddik misunderstood Yaakov Avinu." He said that at times, we have no choice but to project what the Gedolim would say, but none of us can say with confidence that we KNOW.

On a different occasion, he noted that one must always take achrayus for how a question is asked, and not assume that the answer someone else received - or the answer one received in a similar case - is relevant to the subject at hand.

I should try to ask him if he plans on consulting again or if whatever answer he already got is enough for him.

[aygart]

On a different occasion, he noted that one must always take achrayus for how a question is asked,

This is a pri megadim.

[imayid2]

RAF wrote a lengthy article explaining his position. Is there anything written by those supporting to be involved, explaining there position beyond squabbling about if this or that Gadol said something. Answering RAFs reasons etc. Anything more than sort of the “the Gadol said and no more is necessary in sort of magic eight ball fashion?

Dunno, I feel like back in the day controversies had the Gedolim on either side intellectually outlining their positions.

[gubevo18]

RAF wrote a lengthy article explaining his position. Is there anything written by those supporting to be involved, explaining there position beyond squabbling about if this or that Gadol said something. Answering RAFs reasons etc. Anything more than sort of the “the Gadol said and no more is necessary in sort of magic eight ball fashion?

Dunno, I feel like back in the day controversies had the Gedolim on either side intellectually outlining their positions.

okay but did rav ahron Feldman address why knesset is okay but not WZO?

Back in the day people who took positions needed to be intellectually consistent and therefore were able to outline their positions intellectually....

[PlatinumGuy]

okay but did rav ahron Feldman address why knesset is okay but not WZO?

I wouldn't be so sure he still holds Knesset is OK

[gubevo18]

I wouldn't be so sure he still holds Knesset is OK

fair point, in which case those who hold knesset is okay shouldn't use him as their source for why WZO is not okay

[PlatinumGuy]

fair point, in which case those who hold knesset is okay shouldn't use him as their source for why WZO is not okay

Personally I would go a step further and say that since it's been established ע״י רוב that Knesset is OK, nobody should use him as a source for anything...

[gubevo18]

Personally I would go a step further and say that since it's been established ע״י רוב that Knesset is OK, nobody should use him as a source for anything...

don't think it works that way... Most Jews are not religious, most people are not Jewish... Etc. etc. Most people served the eigel. Not sure why Rov has anything to do with this.

[mevinyavin]

okay but did rav ahron Feldman address why knesset is okay but not WZO?

Back in the day people who took positions needed to be intellectually consistent and therefore were able to outline their positions intellectually....

Yes, pretty sure that he did.

Next: “Participation in the WZO is not unlike the participation of Chareidi representatives in the
Knesset.” Those words, which the founder of Eretz Hakodesh wrote during the election
campaign, display a complete unawareness of what both Rav Reuven Grozovsky and Rav Yosef
Sholom Elyashiv wrote regarding this very matter. 
They explained at length that there is no comparison between the two situations. The Knesset is
not an ideological organization, but a governmental body which includes non-Zionists such as
the Arab parties. This body passes laws governing the country’s citizens and has the power to
interfere with the lives of religious Jews, and since they have no choice but to live under its rule,
they are forced to send representatives there to fight for their survival. The Chazon Ish
compared representation in the Knesset to someone who is attacked in the forest by robbers
and negotiates with them hoping they will allow him to live. 
The WZO, in contrast, is the ideological center of Zionism, and we are not compelled to join it to
prevent any denial of our rights as citizens. Participating in it is thus a willful act of identification
with Zionism and collaboration with those who are anti-Torah. Yet, either ignorant or disdainful
of what these gedoley Yisroel have written, the founder of Eretz Hakodesh simply continued to
claim "this is no different than our gedolim or askanim getting involved in government issues.”

[aygart]

Yes, pretty sure that he did.

But is it really an idealistically center of anything right now?

[yfr bachur]

Yes, pretty sure that he did.

...The WZO, in contrast, is the ideological center of Zionism, and we are not compelled to join it to
prevent any denial of our rights as citizens...

The counter point being that WZO does, in fact, have outsized influence on israeli society via its spending, and this does and

has the power to
interfere with the lives of religious Jews

with its influence. So why are we not

forced to send representatives there to fight for their survival

The claim that

The Knesset is
not an ideological organization, but a governmental body which includes non-Zionists such as
the Arab parties.

While WZO TODAY whice also includes "non-zionistic" parties such as the reform (them of the "our Jerusalem is Berlin"....) is suddenly beholden to the original shitos of the original members....
Is simply the claim that governments are muttar, organizations are asur - even if they wield extreme power...

[yfr bachur]

Personally I would go a step further and say that since it's been established ע״י רוב that Knesset is OK, nobody should use him as a source for anything...

don't think it works that way... Most Jews are not religious, most people are not Jewish... Etc. etc. Most people served the eigel. Not sure why Rov has anything to do with this.

His point is that today RAF identifies with Etz, which no longer participates in elections for the Knesset while rov minyan ubinyan of frum rabbanim don't hold th way.

[EliJelly]

His point is that today RAF identifies with Etz, which no longer participates in elections for the Knesset while rov minyan ubinyan of frum rabbanim don't hold th way.

WZO is not for Israelis to vote in. In the US your statement is no longer true in the yeshivish world today. Rav Elya Ber, Rav Malkiel etc are also pretty much pro Etz.

[yfr bachur]

RAF wrote a lengthy article explaining his position. Is there anything written by those supporting to be involved, explaining there position beyond squabbling about if this or that Gadol said something. Answering RAFs reasons etc. Anything more than sort of the “the Gadol said and no more is necessary in sort of magic eight ball fashion?

Dunno, I feel like back in the day controversies had the Gedolim on either side intellectually outlining their positions.

AFAIK RAF wrote his paper as a response to the other rabbanim positions. I am not aware that he offered the other rabbanim equal space in HIS english torah journal to make their case.
Additionally it is possible that the pro rabbanim thought that it was important to vote, but not important enough to make a big machlokes about it.

[yfr bachur]

WZO is not for Israelis to vote in. In the US your statement is no longer true in the yeshivish world today. Rav Elya Ber, Rav Malikiel etc are also pretty much pro Etz.

While thought to be true, I dont know.
Frum litvish American Judaism is a very large spectrum. Plenty of the older Rabbanim are still degel centric...

[PlatinumGuy]

don't think it works that way... Most Jews are not religious, most people are not Jewish... Etc. etc. Most people served the eigel. Not sure why Rov has anything to do with this.

השליך אמת ארצה

The Torah is what the majority of Rabbonim interpret it.

אחרי רבים להטות

[EliJelly]

השליך אמת ארצה

The Torah is what the majority of Rabbonim interpret it.

אחרי רבים להטות

Joke. They never sat down together and discussed it and then put it up for a vote. Which of the Rebbes and signatories explained their position so it can be examined?

[PlatinumGuy]

Joke. They never sat down together and discussed it and then put it up for a vote. Which of the Rebbes and signatories explained their position so it can be examined?

Calling the Torah a joke shows why you aren't accepting it.

There is no requirement for them to sit down and discuss it or vote on it. The Torah is the way the majority of rabbinom interpret it. Nobody dispute the majority of Rabbonim hold one should vote for the Knesset and that is the Torah.

[yfr bachur]

Joke. They never sat down together and discussed it and then put it up for a vote. Which of the Rebbes and signatories explained their position so it can be examined?

This has been discussed ad infinitum for the last 8 decades. I'm pretty sure the various rabbonim must have figured out by now what the different positions are

[mevinyavin]

Additionally it is possible that the pro rabbanim thought that it was important to vote, but not important enough to make a big machlokes about it.

Pretty certain that this is the case.