World Zionist Organization

[chinagel]

I'll make a daring statement here. A 100 years ago such shallos were presented to the Cofetz Chaim and the like, although the Rogatchover was heads and shoulders in Torah above anyone else.

Debatable. Also, the question was presented to him IINM. Definitely, such types of questions were.

There wasn't a "system" who crowned him as moran and then drew all sorts of statements and psakim from him. Rav Shach and the like were cut out to be asked these major klal questions. Rav chaim, although being the undisputed שר התורה was not. That such questions were even presented to him shows the stupidity and the corruption and we all know how they worked with him. When Litvaks turn into chassidim this nuance gets thrown out of the window too.

This has nothing to do with Chasidim or Litvaks. IF the question was ever presented to him, it was by people with an agenda looking to get the answer they wanted. When RSK tried getting an answer from him, he was completely stonewalled.

[imayid2]

TBH, I don't know why there even is a debate regarding the WZO. Surely it is relevant only to people that are being asked this question altz daas Torah, and not to the like of us... Unless there are people who got a psak already, but are bothered by what the other side is saying? If you didn't get a psak yet, go ask your Rav what he thinks. I would assume most are on the NOT VOTE side, based on what I know regarding who says what.

When someone gets a psak, does that psak include a psak on how his personal view should actually be? Or is the psak limited to the purely practical?

[mevinyavin]

Rav Shach and the like were cut out to be asked these major klal questions. Rav chaim, although being the undisputed שר התורה was not. That such questions were even presented to him shows the stupidity and the corruption and we all know how they worked with him. When Litvaks turn into chassidim this nuance gets thrown out of the window too.

That may be your opinion but it wasn't R' Berkovits's opinion. And he himself has said such things regarding other, lesser questions and Rav Chaim ("Don't ask Rav Chaim if you should buy a car.").
It should be noted that Rav Berkovits was personally meshamesh several Gedolei Hador (he has pesakim from them that no one else got), to the extent that Rav Elyashiv even told him to stop asking certain types of questions because he already knows how to decide for himself.
(Agav, when it comes to him, the phrasing goes, "When Chassidim turn into Litvaks...")

[mevinyavin]

When someone gets a psak, does that psak include a psak on how his personal view should actually be? Or is the psak limited to the purely practical?

I'm not sure. Personally, if I disagree (or in the shprach, "I don't understand where he is coming from"), I'll keep at it until he convinces me or I convince him.

[PlatinumGuy]

I'll make a daring statement here. A 100 years ago such shallos were presented to the Cofetz Chaim and the like, although the Rogatchover was heads and shoulders in Torah above anyone else. There wasn't a "system" who crowned him as moran and then drew all sorts of statements and psakim from him. Rav Shach and the like were cut out to be asked these major klal questions. Rav chaim, although being the undisputed שר התורה was not. That such questions were even presented to him shows the stupidity and the corruption and we all know how they worked with him. When Litvaks turn into chassidim this nuance gets thrown out of the window too.

It's not as well understood yet but the dynamic continues today. RDL is considered the bigger talmid chochom, and R' Moshe Hillel the more center minded.

[imayid2]

I'm not sure. Personally, if I disagree (or in the shprach, "I don't understand where he is coming from"), I'll keep at it until he convinces me or I convince him.

The instructions regarding these topics are an really an ideology. Therefore, people who were taught this ideology will understandably be upset at others who are undermining it.

This should answer your question about why there is a debate as opposed to looking at this as some sort of question about what bracha to make and it’s all cool everyone follow their Rav.

[imayid2]

I'll make a daring statement here. A 100 years ago such shallos were presented to the Cofetz Chaim and the like, although the Rogatchover was heads and shoulders in Torah above anyone else. There wasn't a "system" who crowned him as moran and then drew all sorts of statements and psakim from him. Rav Shach and the like were cut out to be asked these major klal questions. Rav chaim, although being the undisputed שר התורה was not. That such questions were even presented to him shows the stupidity and the corruption and we all know how they worked with him. When Litvaks turn into chassidim this nuance gets thrown out of the window too.

Sort of calls into question how “Daas Torah” works if it doesn’t seem qualified by pure Torah knowledge rather more of a specific pragmatic leader type.

[mevinyavin]

The instructions regarding these topics are an really an ideology. Therefore, people who were taught this ideology will understandably be upset at others who are undermining it.

This should answer your question about why there is a debate as opposed to looking at this as some sort of question about what bracha to make and it’s all cool everyone follow their Rav.

I hear you. Sort of.

[PlatinumGuy]

Sort of calls into question how “Daas Torah” works if it doesn’t seem qualified by pure Torah knowledge rather more of a specific pragmatic leader type.

Sanhedrin wasn't compromised of the 70 people with highest torah Knoweldge. There are other qualifications.

[imayid2]

Sanhedrin wasn't compromised of the 70 people with highest torah Knoweldge. There are other qualifications.

Good point

[gozalim]

The debate and mocking of "daas Torah" is often applied to having them answer practical questions better left to professionals. Halacha, hadhkafa, hanhagas haklal is exactly what we have leaders for.
Things like "is zionism in opposition to Torah" and "to what extent do pragmatic concerns permit cooperation with otherwise unkosher philosophies" are very much the domain of rabbinic leadership

[jye]

Sort of calls into question how “Daas Torah” works if it doesn’t seem qualified by pure Torah knowledge rather more of a specific pragmatic leader type.

https://rebgershonribner.com/whose-judgement-should-be-valued-more-upon-clash-the-shadchan-or-the-mentor

[EliJelly]

How did we wander into the Rabbinic vs professional question here?? Was the Chazon Ish a professional? was the Brisker Rov a professional? Of course anything they said was pure Daas Torrah and nothing else. But they had the qualifications to understand the worldly stuff too better than anyone else and through the lens of true Daas Torah, and they spent their time and brainpower to be dedicated for the klal. It's not at all a given than a person who was never into these stuff, is more of a tmimusdig type, has been pretty sheltered his entire life without any engagement to tzorchei klal, should all of the sudden be making such calls at the age of 75 through filtered info to which he pays 10 seconds listening to between one rashi and the next, despite being a giant in Torah more than his peers. All the while just 10 years earlier it wasn't even a question that he isn't suited for that role. This was self understood not too long ago.

[yfr bachur]

How did we wander into the Rabbinic vs professional question here?? Was the Chazon Ish a professional? was the Brisker Rov a professional? Of course anything they said was pure Daas Torrah and nothing else. But they had the qualifications to understand the worldly stuff too better than anyone else and through the lens of true Daas Torah, and they spent their time and brainpower to be dedicated for the klal. It's not at all a given than a person who was never into these stuff, is more of a tmimusdig type, has been pretty sheltered his entire life without any engagement to tzorchei klal, should all of the sudden be making such calls at the age of 75 through filtered info to which he pays 10 seconds listening to between one rashi and the next, despite being a giant in Torah more than his peers. All the while just 10 years earlier it wasn't even a question that he isn't suited for that role. This was self understood not too long ago.

A. Until the CI decided to get involved in public issues, he too fit the description you use for RCK.
B. I would trust not the haamon am, who follow whatever the ad agencies tell them, but the rabbanim. They decide to whom it is appropriate to ask complicated klal shaylos (ayin the famous NYT interview with RMF).
When RGE was sick, no one told REYF of the Mir who he should take his shaylos to... He needed an answer, he thought about who he could ask, what was the best option... and went to RMHH.

[jye]

A. Until the CI decided to get involved in public issues, he too fit the description you use for RCK.

מה ענין שמיטה אצל הר סיני?
The Chazon ish was know from a young age for his penetrating insight into human psychology, the sciences, and  the like. He was heavily consulted by Rav Chaim Ozer in Vilna on all sorts of communal and political issues. One only has to take a glance at אמונה ובטחון to see his keen understanding and penetrating insight. Ben Gurion and secular intellectuals recognized it as well. It was only natural that when he decided to become a more public figure he was sought out as Daas Torah in all areas. Rav Chaim Kanievsky was never considered other that perhaps one with ruach hakodesh and tremendous knowledge of כל התורה כולה but shared little in common with the Chazon Ish.

[EliJelly]

A. Until the CI decided to get involved in public issues, he too fit the description you use for RCK.

As jye pointed out so eloquently, this couldn't be further from the truth. (And after another thought you sure realize this as well.)

RCK didn't even consider himself doing that and probably wasn't even aware that he's being perceived as a deciding gadol ha'dor on klal issues. He didn't do any due diligence or summonsed askanim to get to the bottom of the various issues and questions like other gedolim were. He was nudged and bothered to give statements and reluctantly took away his eyes from the gemara for a few moments just because the only person all these communications went through, his einikal, figured out how to do it.

[EliJelly]

Avodah Zarah

Rav Chaim Soloveitchik zt”l

Minsk

Here is another story which mentions all of the above..

[Saulius]

[Zionism's War against Orthodox Judaism]

In Their Own Words: Judaism, Zionism, and Where “Eretz Hakodesh” Stands – PDF Download

https://harehbetzba.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/In-Their-Own-Words-Spreads-Color-Hi-Res-3.pdf

[mevinyavin]

[Zionism's War against Orthodox Judaism]

In Their Own Words: Judaism, Zionism, and Where “Eretz Hakodesh” Stands – PDF Download

https://harehbetzba.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/In-Their-Own-Words-Spreads-Color-Hi-Res-3.pdf

What beautiful pictures!

[mevinyavin]

My understanding of and from the rabbanim involved is that whatever real reasons and rational they had, whatever they heard from Reb Chaim either themselves or via shluchim neemanim that they themselves sent to speak with him, is not worth machlokes. They are taking the attacks, without responding a kol shehu.

Since that is their path, A. There's no point debating it and defending their positions, because they would not want us to, even though there is what to say. B. I would be shocked if they have the same stance (to vote) this time round, since it is now machlokes.

Confirmed that the psak from RYBs is the same as before, and also, that there will be no public campaign (at least not mitaamo) because it is now machlokes.