World Zionist Organization

[yelped]

Do we believe that the "State of Israel" is central to the "life of the (Jewish) nation"? This statement is based on the ideas of those who wanted the State to replace Torah.

I agree that's it's unnecessary to state the obvious. Of course the state of (Klal) Israel is central to the life of the nation!

 

[Saulius]

I have no problem at all with girls doing national service, as long as it's under a torah hashkafah guidance.

https://torahanytime.com/lectures/335886    - Zionism & It's Relationship to Judaism - Part 117: Drafting Women

[mevinyavin]

I think the question is, even if you do not want to associate with Zionists, how dangerous it is to allow these huge sums of money and pressure to be thrown around in trying to loosen the last safeguards of Judaism in Israel such as Rababanut control over marriages, kashrus, mikvas, and issues such as Shabbos, recognition of non Orthodox streams of Judaism as valid, and WOW.

I think that was R' Berkovitz's point.

No, this was the reason the question regarding participation was asked to Rav Chaim zatzal. The tzad of those opposed is quite clear and muvan and has a greater precedent. Among other things:

See the first article here

Every single line substitutes Torah and its only values for the Jewish people for some foreign ideas, although nicely worded.

But money was being poured into things that were doing great damage to Klal Yisrael, so the question was asked, and Rav Chaim said to do it. Those opposed have clearly said they don't believe this. Okay.

[gubevo18]

As an observer, I just find it odd that we would be willing to take part in the government, vote for all kinds of things to get money for yeshivos, but then for this we shouldn't partake. I very much respect and appreciate the Satmar/brisk/eidah approach. They are at least consistent. I'm just not sure I understand those that partake in the knesset but won't vote WZO.

That being said I'm aware that as a factual matter there were those involved with WZO that attributed quoted and haskamos to certain gedolim who never actually said such things. Equally, if not more, wrong.

[mevinyavin]

As an observer, I just find it odd that we would be willing to take part in the government, vote for all kinds of things to get money for yeshivos, but then for this we shouldn't partake. I very much respect and appreciate the Satmar/brisk/eidah approach. They are at least consistent. I'm just not sure I understand those that partake in the knesset but won't vote WZO.

Because the same gedolim who said yes to the Knesset said no to the WZO.

That being said I'm aware that as a factual matter there were those involved with WZO that attributed quoted and haskamos to certain gedolim who never actually said such things. Equally, if not more, wrong.

I hope you aren't referring to Rav Chaim. Someone else?

[gubevo18]

Because the same gedolim who said yes to the Knesset said no to the WZO.
I hope you aren't referring to Rav Chaim. Someone else?

Not reb chaim - american rabbanim.

But yes, I'm asking to understand the reasoning of those gedolim who said yes to knesset and no to WZO

[Randomex]

[...]

But yes, I'm asking to understand the reasoning of those gedolim who said yes to knesset and no to WZO

What comes to mind immediately is that the Israeli government is just that - a government. It exists
to run a country. The WZO is an ideological organization, the goal of which is to promote an ideology.

[sguitarist18]

No, this was the reason the question regarding participation was asked to Rav Chaim zatzal.

Are you saying that R' Yitzchok Berkovitz didn't say this?

[mevinyavin]

Are you saying that R' Yitzchok Berkovitz didn't say this?

Not until he got the okay from Rav Chaim. He knew what the Gedolim had said earlier.

[Chilla]

IINM, RYB said he believes R' PL's account of his Conversation with R' Chaim, while R' AF (and many others) were... skeptical.

[mevinyavin]

IINM, RYB said he believes R' PL's account of his Conversation with R' Chaim, while R' AF (and many others) were... skeptical.

I personally heard RYB say that Rav Chaim paskined this, and that was why he was doing it. If he "believes" someone's account of the conversation, he certainly seems to believe it with conviction. When asked about those who do not believe the conversation happened, he seemed ... resigned ... and simply repeated that Rav Chaim did say it. (I don't know who this PL is. It isn't the person who I understood was the one who spoke to Rav Chaim. Perhaps there was more than one conversation, as would indeed behoove such a weighty topic.)

[gubevo18]

What comes to mind immediately is that the Israeli government is just that - a government. It exists
to run a country. The WZO is an ideological organization, the goal of which is to promote an ideology.

This doesn't really hold water. The WZO is to promote an ideology which aligns with the govt and basically states that the ideology should be to support the govt. But sinnce the WZO is about ideology and the govt is about implementation of said ideology we shouldn't support WZO but can support govt. Not sure I follow.

And if you think the govt as a whole doesn't support every one of the WZO principles . . .

[yfr bachur]

I personally heard RYB say that Rav Chaim paskined this, and that was why he was doing it. If he "believes" someone's account of the conversation, he certainly seems to believe it with conviction. When asked about those who do not believe the conversation happened, he seemed ... resigned ... and simply repeated that Rav Chaim did say it. (I don't know who this PL is. It isn't the person who I understood was the one who spoke to Rav Chaim. Perhaps there was more than one conversation, as would indeed behoove such a weighty topic.)

Pl = peasach lerner

[yfr bachur]

IINM, RYB said he believes R' PL's account of his Conversation with R' Chaim, while R' AF (and many others) were... skeptical.

I highly doubt that RYBs would do something so against the accepted chareidi grain based on his understanding of a MO persons conversation with Reb Chaim.

Some of the skepticism comes from internal israeli politics where those against the "mainstream" degel view didn't have the azus to argue with Reb Chaim... but had all sorts of other mehalchim to explain why he didnt say it and even if he said it, its tha gaboim.... etc... RAF is objectively identified with that camp.

Anyway, it's more or less irrelevant now what Reb Chaim said five years ago. The current manhigim are RMM Hirsh and RD Landau... Let's wait to see what they say....

[aygart]

Anyway, it's more or less irrelevant now what Reb Chaim said five years ago.

Why? What changed?

[Saulius]

I have no problem at all with girls doing national service, as long as it's under a torah hashkafah guidance.

[yfr bachur]

Why? What changed?

We do what living gadol/manhig tells us, not projecting what a dead one might say....
Even if he said yes five years ago... We'll do what RMHH and RDL say now.

[Chilla]

Not sure why.
Are you quoting R' Berkowitz?

[aygart]

We do what living gadol/manhig tells us, not projecting what a dead one might say....
Even if he said yes five years ago... We'll do what RMHH and RDL say now.

What are we projecting?

[yfr bachur]

Not sure why.
Are you quoting R' Berkowitz?

No. But that's the chinuch i got.