Author Topic: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related  (Read 512472 times)

Offline alexk.

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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2620 on: August 05, 2021, 03:45:45 PM »
A lot of people who are not Anti-Vax in general, do not want to give this vaccine.

Take a look at this thread and you may understand why people are very hesitant to take it:

https://notthebee.com/article/if-you-want-to-understand-why-people-are-vaccine-hesitant-you-need-to-read-this-megathread-right-now

There has been little proof for the need of the recovered to get vaccinated - and that they are less protected than the vaccinated. They refuse to acknowledge the recovered and will treat them like any other unvaccinated (2nd class citizen in New York). Why no data on the recovered? We all know the risks at this point.

There are many doctors that are hesitant to give it to young adults and teens. However, they can't voice their opinions since they will get shunned. Yes, my pediatrician has given all of the vaccines to my children. Despite that, she said that right now she would not give it to her own teens and nor can she give it to us in good conscience.

I am recovered, my wife is recovered. I have not received a compelling reason to get the vaccine. If I were elderly or had no exposure, I would probably feel different. As I had told my parents to do - and they took it. 

Can we stop vilifying everyone who doesn't want to vax? As we see with the breakthrough cases, prove to me that you are more protected than I am because you are vaccinated.

Not everyone is a conspiracy theorist... Just don't tell me there is no reason at all to give pause to taking it. Nothing is 100% safe, so don't try to pass this off as if it is. Lets be adults and make a decision without coercion.

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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2621 on: August 05, 2021, 06:19:13 PM »

There has been little proof for the need of the recovered to get vaccinated - and that they are less protected than the vaccinated. They refuse to acknowledge the recovered and will treat them like any other unvaccinated (2nd class citizen in New York). Why no data on the recovered? We all know the risks at this point.

I think that this is the real issue here. At the very least there has been ZERO or at most next to zero communication about why someone who actually had COVID such as positive tests or antibodies should get the vaccine. Is there any science showing a benefit @biobook ? People convincing themselves that they had it based on what has been shown to be nonsense many times over like "heavily exposed" doesn't count.

I think a part of Israel's success was how they did recognize recovery @ExGingi
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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2622 on: August 05, 2021, 06:22:41 PM »
I think that this is the real issue here. At the very least there has been ZERO or at most next to zero communication about why someone who actually had COVID such as positive tests or antibodies should get the vaccine. Is there any science showing a benefit @biobook ? People convincing themselves that they had it based on what has been shown to be nonsense many times over like "heavily exposed" doesn't count.

I think a part of Israel's success was how they did recognize recovery @ExGingi

I legit thought I had COVID twice, once was a double-whammy strep and flu together.
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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2623 on: August 05, 2021, 06:52:57 PM »
I think that this is the real issue here. At the very least there has been ZERO or at most next to zero communication about why someone who actually had COVID such as positive tests or antibodies should get the vaccine. Is there any science showing a benefit @biobook ? People convincing themselves that they had it based on what has been shown to be nonsense many times over like "heavily exposed" doesn't count.

I think a part of Israel's success was how they did recognize recovery @ExGingi
I don't think it's necessarily right to treat recovered and unvaxxed the same as never had it and unvaxxed, but I don't think you're correct about "zero communication about why someone who actually had COVID such as positive tests or antibodies should get the vaccine". Without getting too deep into whether you'd consider this strong evidence or not, here are the first 2 links I found discussing this after a minute of googling:

https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-generated-from-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2782139

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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2624 on: August 05, 2021, 06:54:35 PM »
I don't think it's necessarily right to treat recovered and unvaxxed the same as never had it and unvaxxed, but I don't think you're correct about "zero communication about why someone who actually had COVID such as positive tests or antibodies should get the vaccine". Without getting too deep into whether you'd consider this strong evidence or not, here are the first 2 links I found discussing this after a minute of googling:

https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-generated-from-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2782139
Having studies out there is not called communication at all. That does not even qualify as next to zero
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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2625 on: August 05, 2021, 07:08:14 PM »
Having studies out there is not called communication at all. That does not even qualify as next to zero
The first link is not a study, it's the NIH director's blog. Who are you faulting exactly, the media?

Either way, while I hear your point to some extent, the people who are not getting the vaccine because they've recovered are doing so in largely an absence of 'communication' from the scientific community saying that their recovery makes them as safe as the vaccine. So I'm not sure increased 'communication' about the benefits of vaccinating despite having recovered is going to make much difference in that demographic.

ETA - Tweet from former NYC Health Commissioner and CDC director:
https://twitter.com/DrTomFrieden/status/1395410306113937408
« Last Edit: August 05, 2021, 07:11:19 PM by skyguy918 »

Offline biobook

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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2626 on: August 05, 2021, 08:03:43 PM »
At the very least there has been ZERO or at most next to zero communication about why someone who actually had COVID such as positive tests or antibodies should get the vaccine.
It was around this time last year when we started to hear about re-infections.  One here, one there... and we worried that immunity naturally induced by a case of covid would be short lived.  By December, there still weren't many re-infections, and we were told that natural immunity would last at least 7-8 months. 

Then the vaccine became available, and there were discussions about who should get it first.  Some argued that those who'd recovered had natural immunity, so should be last in line.  But many of those who had recovered from severe cases of covid, felt that they should go first - they had already suffered once and didn't want to take any chance on reinfection.  There was also initially some concern that those with natural immunity might react differently to the vaccine (there were only a few known recoverees in the clinical trial), but after a short while it became clear that this wasn't a concern. 

It was finally announced that those who recovered could get the vaccine, that is, it was communicated as somewhat optional, and that we didn't yet know if it would be medically necessary, though it was taken by many who felt they needed it for their emotional health or for travel or work. 

I think the reason we didn't hear a lot about this any more is numerical.  Some 35 million Americans recovered from covid - a large number, of course, but it pales in comparison with the >300 million who hadn't.  So the priority has been to vax the obviously unprotected rather than the probably protected recoverees.  Another concern, mentioned above, was that some of those who thought they had covid may not have had it at all. 

As it became clear that there was no danger from the vaccine for recoverees, they were also told it would be good to get it.  And there was one article that showed that being recovered and getting just one dose of the vaccine led to something like ten-fold higher antibodies than an uninfected person who got the two-shot vaccine. 

So a couple of months ago, I think it would have been justified to say that someone who'd recovered from covid is immunologically protected as well as someone who was fully vaccinated.  But the latest results from Israel are showing that both of those groups are getting sick now.  On the one hand, the numbers are relatively small, but on the other hand they're higher than we saw last summer, when it took a few months to find 20 re-infections in the whole world.  Now we saw 72 re-infections in just a few months, just in Israel.  The other coronaviruses, which cause a simple cold, do produce immunity that lasts about a year, so there's some concern that this might be true of SARS-cov2 as well.   (This 72 re-infections looked to be about 1/6 the rate of breakthrough infections in vaxed people, but we haven't yet seen a careful analysis of that data.)  It's also possible that what we're seeing in Israel is a lower immunity to the delta variant, which suggests we might have similar or even worse cases in response to new variants that emerge. 

So, in short, if it's not too late for that  :) I think it's not irrational for people who had a well-documented case of covid to not rush to vaccinate.  But there is a benefit for them to get vaccinated anyway:  It increases their antibody levels, acting like a booster shot, so presumably decreases the risk of re-infection.

But the practical ramifications are not so simple.  Even if the recoverees and vaxed are equally immune, that immunity is not documented equally.  We know that immunity is good 8 months after infection, but many were infected 17 months ago.  We don't know how their antibody levels relate to immunity.  So those recoverees who want to be fully integrated in society over the next few months may want to get vaccinated anyway.

Also, yes, skyguy918's linked articles are excellent.

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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2627 on: August 05, 2021, 08:35:34 PM »

I agree with every part of what you wrote. I myself got the vaccine within 8 months of recovering. Based on what you wrote there is not much justification in the policy of allowing vaccinated and not recovered especially if they have a positive antibody test. I don't see why there should be so much pressure on those recovered. In general what you wrote was not concrete science but rather that we don't know how long either one lasts. That is not much of a reason to get the shot as you mentioned.
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Offline Jellybelly

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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2628 on: August 05, 2021, 08:38:23 PM »
@biobook
Where did you get the number 35 million from?
Many people I know, including me and my wife had Covid but were never tested, I would think the number is higher

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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2629 on: August 05, 2021, 08:39:26 PM »
@biobook
Where did you get the number 35 million from?
Many people I know, including me and my wife had Covid but were never tested, I would think the number is higher
How are you so certain that you had it
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Offline Jellybelly

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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2630 on: August 05, 2021, 08:47:30 PM »
How are you so certain that you had it

I Was sick for almost 2 weeks in March 2020, before everyone was testing

 Tested for antibodies a few months later and the numbers were very high
 was asked to donate plasma.
So I donít have any doubts

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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2631 on: August 05, 2021, 08:48:30 PM »
I Was sick for almost 2 weeks in March 2020, before everyone was testing

 Tested for antibodies a few months later and the numbers were very high
 was asked to donate plasma.
So I donít have any doubts
Antibodies work. They should count it in the numbers
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Offline biobook

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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2632 on: August 05, 2021, 09:04:35 PM »
@biobook
Where did you get the number 35 million from?
Many people I know, including me and my wife had Covid but were never tested, I would think the number is higher
Okay, so that would make it 35,000,002

Offline biobook

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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2633 on: August 05, 2021, 09:06:34 PM »
@biobook
Where did you get the number 35 million from?
Many people I know, including me and my wife had Covid but were never tested, I would think the number is higher
I asked google How many americans had covid?  It says "This data is provided by Wikipedia, The New York Times and Our World in Data."  Sure, there were untested cases, so it's just a ballpark figure.

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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2634 on: August 05, 2021, 09:11:55 PM »
I agree with every part of what you wrote. I myself got the vaccine within 8 months of recovering. Based on what you wrote there is not much justification in the policy of allowing vaccinated and not recovered especially if they have a positive antibody test. I don't see why there should be so much pressure on those recovered. In general what you wrote was not concrete science but rather that we don't know how long either one lasts. That is not much of a reason to get the shot as you mentioned.
There are two separate issues:
Are vaccinated and recovered equally immune?  Probably, at least for 8 months
Are vaccinated and recovered equally able to prove their immunity?  Probably not

The policy can only be based on people being able to submit proof, and vaccinated have clear proof of when they were vaccinated.  Recovered may not have proof that they had covid, and even if they do, it may have been more than a year ago, so they don't have proof of immunity. 

(I don't know what you mean by concrete science)

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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2635 on: August 05, 2021, 09:18:20 PM »
Ultimately, if previous infection protects against reinfection as much as people are saying, they shouldn't have a problem with hospitals saying they won't treat unvaccinated people for Covid. It won't apply to them.

Getting COVID or the vaccine doesnít protect 100% against serious illness or death, so it can still apply to them

(Again, Iím not saying I believe in this.)

Because theyíre not being ďpunishedĒ. If they believe thereís a reasonable chance theyíll end up in the hospital with COVID and denied adequate treatment, they should get vaccinated. Theyíre only punishing themselves- itís a system with a voluntary action, and reward and punishment tied directly to the action and subsequent reaction. It actually is quite reasonable, hospital morals and ethics aside.

Donít think itís needed because you wonít be affected? No problem. But donít expect people who *did* take the shot to scoot over for you in the hospital.

(I would assume PGís system would leave room for people whoís doctors issue an exemption because itís dangerous for them, but who still maintain adequate caution vis a vis exposure).

If a COVID recoverer has the same likelihood of serious illness as a vaccinated person, you are in fact punishing the COVID recoverer because they didnít decide to vaccinate for no reason. Perhaps we should punish those that only took 2 shots or the J&J because they didnít get a better vaccine or a booster? Quite ridiculous.
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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2636 on: August 05, 2021, 09:20:53 PM »
Getting COVID or the vaccine doesnít protect 100% against serious illness or death, so it can still apply to them

If a COVID recoverer has the same likelihood of serious illness as a vaccinated person, you are in fact punishing the COVID recoverer because they didnít decide to vaccinate for no reason. Perhaps we should punish those that only took 2 shots or the J&J because they didnít get a better vaccine or a booster? Quite ridiculous.
I think you are still not getting what PGs objective is. It is to incentivize vaccination (for the collective) and lower the risk of not being treated (for the collective). If you reward people who vaccinate by promising priority treatment (and similarly, punish those who donít vaccinate with back-of-the-line treatment), you are likely to both a) boost vaccination rates (of the collective) and [therefore] b) lower the risk (of the collective) of not being treated.

In cases where the hospital system overloads anyway, those who did their part for the collective will be rewarded with prioritization of resources above those who did not.
(Again, Iím not saying I believe in this.)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2021, 09:24:44 PM by S209 »
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2637 on: August 05, 2021, 09:30:32 PM »
I think you are still not getting what PGs objective is. It is to incentivize vaccination (for the collective) and lower the risk of not being treated (for the collective). If you reward people who vaccinate by promising priority treatment (and similarly, punish those who donít vaccinate with back-of-the-line treatment), you are likely to both a) boost vaccination rates (of the collective) and [therefore] b) lower the risk (of the collective) of not being treated.

In cases where the hospital system overloads anyway, those who did their part for the collective will be rewarded with prioritization of resources above those who did not.
That can be accomplished with a system that recognizes antibodies too
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Offline biobook

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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2638 on: August 05, 2021, 09:34:43 PM »
That can be accomplished with a system that recognizes antibodies too
The problem is that we don't yet know what level of antibodies corresponds to immunity.  See this post https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=125811.msg2481334#msg2481334

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Re: Tweets, Pictures, And Videos That Are Coronavirus Related
« Reply #2639 on: August 05, 2021, 09:35:28 PM »
The problem is that we don't yet know what level of antibodies corresponds to immunity.  See this post https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=125811.msg2481334#msg2481334
Which is a crime in and of itself
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