Author Topic: Assumptions of the Medical Community - The Shulchan Aruch's View  (Read 595 times)

Offline yungermanchik

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We have seen this term brought up numerous times and it is important to know what the Shulchan Aruch says in this regard.

There is probably no area of halacha in which we rely on the opinion of a doctor more than Hilchos Yom HaKipurrim. And right there in siman 618 sif 6, the Shulchan Aruch states as follows:
"If the doctor says that he is unfamiliar with the illness, he is like anyone else and his words do not raise nor lower" (i.e. his opinion makes no difference).

Now, the doctor referenced in the S"A is offering an opinion. We just don't regard it as "doctor's words" because they are not based on experience with this particular illness.

When it comes to Covid-19, by now, some things are actually based on experiences with this illness and would be considered "doctor's words" but many things are just extrapolated from other similar illnesses and assumed the "Medical Community."

Would these fall under that purview?
Small people talk about other people.
Average people talk about things
BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.

Offline yelped

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Re: Assumptions of the Medical Community - The Shulchan Aruch's View
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2020, 11:39:01 PM »
Things that act the same way, for example, contagious diseases all spread the same way, so the same steps to prevent one, would prevent a new, unfamiliar one, too. That is not what the SA refers to. Btw, see the MA in Hilchos Shabbos on this, too. Also, SA and Shach in YD.

Offline yungermanchik

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Re: Assumptions of the Medical Community - The Shulchan Aruch's View
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2020, 11:43:20 PM »
Things that act the same way, for example, contagious diseases all spread the same way, so the same steps to prevent one, would prevent a new, unfamiliar one, too. That is not what the SA refers to. Btw, see the MA in Hilchos Shabbos on this, too. Also, SA and Shach in YD.
Mareh makom(os)?
Small people talk about other people.
Average people talk about things
BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.

Offline ari3

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Re: Assumptions of the Medical Community - The Shulchan Aruch's View
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2020, 12:03:50 AM »
Things that act the same way, for example, contagious diseases all spread the same way, so the same steps to prevent one, would prevent a new, unfamiliar one, too.
That's not what the doctors said. In March and April it spreads thru touching, in May thru sneezing, in June thru singing and screaming etc...

In May my Dr. refused to give me a script so I can get an antibody test because who said antibodies protect you even though every other similiar virus develops antibodies.

This business of needing to quarantine for 10 days after the first symptoms even though you are symptom free for many days has no source from other viruses.

The prevelant distrust of Doctors "assumptions" is not unfounded


Online Yehuda57

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Re: Assumptions of the Medical Community - The Shulchan Aruch's View
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2020, 06:35:14 AM »
IANAR. IANAD.

I would say this thread is based on a profound misunderstanding or misrepresentation of how medical science works. A doctor bases his/her opinions on his/her knowledge and experience, and if s/he has none, on the consensus or prevailing opinion of doctors who do have that knowledge. Thus, a doctor's guidance, even in a case where s/he is not personally experienced, is not on the same level as a layman. In years gone by, the "medical community" was unable to pool knowledge and experiences like they can do today.

And as for doctors' opinions changing over time, that should make you more confident in their guidance, not less. It means they are adapting to learned knowledge and experiences rather than stubbornly sticking to an outdated hypothesis.
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Offline B.D.Da'ehu

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Re: Assumptions of the Medical Community - The Shulchan Aruch's View
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2020, 06:55:56 AM »
It's really astounding to see the lengths some people in our community go to avoid taking precautions. From 'masks don't work' to it's not a safek pikuach nefesh..to doctors have no idea what's going on.


We were probably hit harder than most yet seem the most resistant to taking simple common sense precautions.


Where does this come from? What is the underlying issue that I'm missing?

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Assumptions of the Medical Community - The Shulchan Aruch's View
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2020, 07:01:05 AM »
It's really astounding to see the lengths some people in our community go to avoid taking precautions. From 'masks don't work' to it's not a safek pikuach nefesh..to doctors have no idea what's going on.


We were probably hit harder than most yet seem the most resistant to taking simple common sense precautions.


Where does this come from? What is the underlying issue that I'm missing?

There are many factors. But the blatant hypocrisy and double standards of the government agencies and medical professionals, irresponsible media that is designed to tear us apart, and nonsensical and draconian lockdowns didn't help anyone.
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Offline B.D.Da'ehu

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Re: Assumptions of the Medical Community - The Shulchan Aruch's View
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2020, 07:09:50 AM »
There are many factors. But the blatant hypocrisy and double standards of the government agencies and medical professionals, irresponsible media that is designed to tear us apart, and nonsensical and draconian lockdowns didn't help anyone.
Why should any of that matter more than our actual health?


It's about our personal responsibility.

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Assumptions of the Medical Community - The Shulchan Aruch's View
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2020, 07:54:08 AM »
Why should any of that matter more than our actual health?

It's about our personal responsibility.

I don't disagree, but you asked
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Offline bettyblue

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Re: Assumptions of the Medical Community - The Shulchan Aruch's View
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2020, 09:30:52 AM »
In the time of the SA, doctors were basically witches. There was no scientific method and no logical basis to trust their knowledge of medicine. Their knowledge of medicine was based on faulty assumptions and their own experience (anecdotal evidence). And yet we were still told to trust them because they were the best we had. See where Iím going?

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Assumptions of the Medical Community - The Shulchan Aruch's View
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2020, 11:43:28 AM »
In the time of the SA, doctors were basically witches. There was no scientific method and no logical basis to trust their knowledge of medicine. Their knowledge of medicine was based on faulty assumptions and their own experience (anecdotal evidence). And yet we were still told to trust them because they were the best we had. See where Iím going?
I was going to post this too. We know far more about Covid-19 than anybody knew about any illness until the 1800s.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Online Kobe Bryant

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Re: Assumptions of the Medical Community - The Shulchan Aruch's View
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2020, 11:57:17 AM »
Why should any of that matter more than our actual health?


It's about our personal responsibility.
It doesn't. And everyone does a risk benefit analysis.