Author Topic: Death Penalty  (Read 13042 times)

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2020, 10:17:54 AM »
https://thelawblog.in/2016/12/27/the-trolley-problem/

“...Similar to the answer which involves saying yes to the train’s diversion but no to the deliberate pushing, the first argument against death penalty distinguishes between ‘killing a person’ and ‘letting a person die’. Hence, the preference for life imprisonment over death penalty. The second school of argument is based on utilitarianism or the principle of ‘greatest good for the greatest number’ as proposed by Jeremy Bentham and thus the methodology doesn’t really create that much of a hindrance since the outcome remains the same.“

Famous Chazon ish. Chazal thought of these dilemnas long before some law professor.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.koltorah.org/halachah/saving-the-many-by-killing-the-few-on-91101-part-one-by-rabbi-chaim-jachter%3fformat=amp

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2020, 10:20:17 AM »
This is another version of the trolley problem, and I also don’t subscribe to killing an innocent person for the Greater Good. But I doubt either of you will be able to convince the other.

How about setting up a fleet of hundreds of ambulances knowing that every single year there are one or two innocent pedestrian fatalities directly caused by ambulances  responding to calls?

How about taking out Osama Bin Ladin where killing him is even slightly advantageous to other options if it means killing an innocent nearby bystander?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 10:44:22 AM by Yard sale »

Offline dealfinder11

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2020, 10:44:15 AM »
Plenty of people die simply because they can't afford healthcare. Old question, just a new way of asking it.

How about setting up a fleet of hundreds of ambulances knowing that every single year there are one or two innocent pedestrian fatalities directly caused by ambulances  responding to calls?

Exactly. From the government's perspective, the cost of an innocent life is somewhat quantifiable (using the term extremely loosely here).

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2020, 10:48:47 AM »
Liberals are generally full of contradictions.  They will advocate abolishing the death penalty because of the possibility of a few innocent individuals being wrongly executed, yet they are all for pulling the plug on life-support for patients who are declared brain-dead against their family‘s wishes, ostensibly to divert the resources to save others, despite the fact that every year there are instances of people declared brain-dead who wake up and recover, some while they are being prepped for organ removal....

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. The whole liberal philosophy is rife with contradictions.

Offline AJK

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2020, 11:19:01 AM »
I don't know where your prior post went, but comparing the killing of an innocent death row inmate to killing OBL when it would also cause the death of an innocent bystander is a false dilemma and a logical fallacy.

In the former case, all one needs to do to accomplish both utilitarian and retributive aims of punishment is to keep the accused/convicted but potentially innocent in the supermax and, you know, not kill him.  There is no such option in your OBL hypo.
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Offline Yard sale

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2020, 11:21:29 AM »
I don't know where your prior post went, but comparing the killing of an innocent death row inmate to killing OBL when it would also cause the death of an innocent bystander is a false dilemma and a logical fallacy.

In the former case, all one needs to do to accomplish both utilitarian and retributive aims of punishment is to keep the accused/convicted but potentially innocent in the supermax and, you know, not kill him.  There is no such option in your OBL hypo.


How about taking out Osama Bin Ladin where killing him is even slightly advantageous to other options if it means killing an innocent nearby bystander?

Are you assuming that there is absolutely zero advantage to the death penalty over Supermax? If so you would oppose the death penalty even if there were no innocent victims.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 11:25:47 AM by Yard sale »

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2020, 11:24:01 AM »
Liberals are generally full of contradictions.  They will advocate abolishing the death penalty because of the possibility of a few innocent individuals being wrongly executed, yet they are all for pulling the plug on life-support for patients who are declared brain-dead against their family‘s wishes, ostensibly to divert the resources to save others, despite the fact that every year there are instances of people declared brain-dead who wake up and recover, some while they are being prepped for organ removal....

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. The whole liberal philosophy is rife with contradictions.

Conservatives are generally full of contradictions.  They will advocate for the death penalty despite the [statistically insignificant] possibility of a few innocent individuals being wrongly executed, yet they are all against pulling the plug on life-support for patients who are declared brain-dead (even according to the patient's or) family‘s wishes, (ostensibly to preserve the sanctity of even a single human life), despite the fact that every year there are [statistically insignificant] instances of people declared brain-dead who wake up and recover, some while they are being prepped for organ removal....

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. The whole conservative philosophy is rife with contradictions.

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2020, 11:29:56 AM »
Conservatives are generally full of contradictions.  They will advocate for the death penalty despite the [statistically insignificant] possibility of a few innocent individuals being wrongly executed, yet they are all against pulling the plug on life-support for patients who are declared brain-dead (even according to the patient's or) family‘s wishes, (ostensibly to preserve the sanctity of even a single human life), despite the fact that every year there are [statistically insignificant] instances of people declared brain-dead who wake up and recover, some while they are being prepped for organ removal....

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. The whole conservative philosophy is rife with contradictions.

When it comes to those who advocate a conservative philosophy without a religious moral imperative I agree. People who don’t have an absolute moral imperative such as the timeless wisdom of the torah that is not subject to the fickle whims and ever shifting attitudes of the masses are going to end up with contradictions no matter which side of the aisle. Conservatives are not excluded. It is the liberal claim that there is a moral imperative that says that we must avoid taking an innocent life at all costs that was being advocated so that is why I focused on the contradictions in liberal philosophy.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 11:43:59 AM by Yard sale »

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2020, 11:58:43 AM »
Agreed. People who don’t have an absolute moral imperative such as the timeless wisdom of the torah that is not subject to the fickle whims and ever shifting attitudes of the masses are going to end up with contradictions no matter which side of the aisle. Conservatives are not excluded. It is the liberal claim that there is a moral imperative that says that we must avoid taking an innocent life at all costs that was being advocated so that is why I focused on the contradictions in liberal philosophy.

You took an issue and blamed it on "liberalism" - I do believe you were the first to mention political sides in this debate. I would say that the "claim that there is a moral imperative that says that we must avoid taking an innocent life at all costs" is more often a conservative one than a liberal one, but as you can see, on both sides it is only applied when politically expedient.

Offline Shkop

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2020, 12:58:29 PM »
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline Shkop

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2020, 01:16:48 PM »
Two thoughts:

There is no question that the Torah supports capital punishment. It is an open Passuk stated to Noach for all humanity, not just the Jewish people.
"Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed"; for in the image of G-d has G-d made mankind"
This is furthered discussed in Talmud - Meseches Sanhedrin.

The fact that it is possible for the court to err does not make capital punishment wrong. It just means that the court must take their responsibility very seriously. In fact, Meseches Avos exhorts judges repeatedly to remain cautious and on guard. Mistakes happen. Could these jurors be fraudulent? Possibly.  Could they be incompetent? Possibly. If there is any fowl play, they will get their just deserves (אַף הוּא רָאָה גֻלְגֹּלֶת אַחַת שֶׁצָּפָה עַל פְּנֵי הַמַּיִם. אָמַר לָהּ, עַל דַּאֲטֵפְתְּ, אַטְפוּךְ. וְסוֹף מְטִיפַיִךְ יְטוּפוּן) But all this has no bearing on the overarching necessity to incorporate the death penalty into court systems. 
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline Shkop

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2020, 01:25:39 PM »
Conservatives are generally full of contradictions.
If they are full of contradictions, kal vachomer liberals.
They will advocate for the death penalty despite the [statistically insignificant] possibility of a few innocent individuals being wrongly executed,
One thing has nothing to do with the other.
yet they are all against pulling the plug on life-support for patients who are declared brain-dead (even according to the patient's or) family‘s wishes, (ostensibly to preserve the sanctity of even a single human life), despite the fact that every year there are [statistically insignificant] instances of people declared brain-dead who wake up and recover, some while they are being prepped for organ removal....
Sir, if pulling the plug is murder (despite the fact that the brain-dead patient will never recover) then they have no right to pull the plug.
That has nothing whatsoever to do with the death penalty, which is about killing someone who deserves to die.
The difference between the two could not be more stark. 
And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. The whole conservative philosophy is rife with contradictions.
Well, the tip of the iceberg so far makes plenty of sense. Regarding the rest, whatever contradictions exist, rest assured that the liberals are way ahead of them.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Online aygart

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2020, 01:45:42 PM »
Two thoughts:

There is no question that the Torah supports capital punishment. It is an open Passuk stated to Noach for all humanity, not just the Jewish people.
"Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed"; for in the image of G-d has G-d made mankind"
This is furthered discussed in Talmud - Meseches Sanhedrin.

The fact that it is possible for the court to err does not make capital punishment wrong. It just means that the court must take their responsibility very seriously. In fact, Meseches Avos exhorts judges repeatedly to remain cautious and on guard. Mistakes happen. Could these jurors be fraudulent? Possibly.  Could they be incompetent? Possibly. If there is any fowl play, they will get their just deserves (אַף הוּא רָאָה גֻלְגֹּלֶת אַחַת שֶׁצָּפָה עַל פְּנֵי הַמַּיִם. אָמַר לָהּ, עַל דַּאֲטֵפְתְּ, אַטְפוּךְ. וְסוֹף מְטִיפַיִךְ יְטוּפוּן) But all this has no bearing on the overarching necessity to incorporate the death penalty into court systems. 
Except that the vast majority of those executed, if not all, would be considered by the Torah to be murder rather than a legitimate use of capital punishment.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online aygart

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2020, 01:46:14 PM »
If they are full of contradictions, kal vachomer liberals. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Sir, if pulling the plug is murder (despite the fact that the brain-dead patient will never recover) then they have no right to pull the plug.
That has nothing whatsoever to do with the death penalty, which is about killing someone who deserves to die.
The difference between the two could not be more stark.  Well, the tip of the iceberg so far makes plenty of sense. Regarding the rest, whatever contradictions exist, rest assured that the liberals are way ahead of them.
LOL
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2020, 02:04:16 PM »
If they are full of contradictions, kal vachomer liberals. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Sir, if pulling the plug is murder (despite the fact that the brain-dead patient will never recover) then they have no right to pull the plug.
That has nothing whatsoever to do with the death penalty, which is about killing someone who deserves to die.
The difference between the two could not be more stark.  Well, the tip of the iceberg so far makes plenty of sense. Regarding the rest, whatever contradictions exist, rest assured that the liberals are way ahead of them.
This presents a wonderful challenge as a writer: how to explain, in writing you can comprehend, that you have no reading comprehension.


Online aygart

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2020, 02:08:05 PM »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2020, 03:34:16 PM »
As the mishna says, s'yag l'kop, sh

Offline Randomex

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2020, 01:33:22 AM »
Except that the vast majority of those executed, if not all, would be considered by the Torah to be murder rather than a legitimate use of capital punishment.

Are you referring to the Torah's standard of evidence for conviction (in a beis din)?
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Offline Randomex

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2020, 01:46:35 AM »
https://thelawblog.in/2016/12/27/the-trolley-problem/

“...Similar to the answer which involves saying yes to the train’s diversion but no to the deliberate pushing, the first argument against death penalty distinguishes between ‘killing a person’ and ‘letting a person die’. Hence, the preference for life imprisonment over death penalty. The second school of argument is based on utilitarianism or the principle of ‘greatest good for the greatest number’ as proposed by Jeremy Bentham and thus the methodology doesn’t really create that much of a hindrance since the outcome remains the same.“

(I'll have to get back to you on this one.)
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Offline yungermanchik

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Re: Death Penalty
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2020, 02:42:54 PM »
I just came acrross a letter from Rav Moshe to President Reagan on this topic: https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=921&st=&pgnum=290&hilite=
Small people talk about other people.
Average people talk about things
BIG PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IDEAS.