Author Topic: Corona virus and your shul  (Read 368439 times)

Offline chevron

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1800 on: May 13, 2020, 12:52:39 AM »
If they were prominent members then it is undermining the rabbi and that should not be tolerated.

A friend of mine who told me the story, has ,2 close family members on the left list.

It's something we discussed here in Miami, my close friend feels that anyone who violated the Rav's takenos should have their membership revoked.

One DDF member mentions tznius. I feel it's so much worse to go against the Rav in terms of Torah.

I can tell you that rabbanim are losing so much sleep. I don't even have enough words.

Don't ever let this sound like some gezeiras shmad. rabbanim are forced to handle the health aspect and the need for tefilla b'tzibur.


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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1801 on: May 13, 2020, 01:01:47 AM »
I said I was going to leave this alone, but I can't.

1) To slander the Jewish communities of South Florida by painting with a broad brush about chillul shabbos and tnius, is abhorrent. To further smear the hashkafa of "their form of religion" like they're distorting Yiddishkeit is disgusting, as are the snide comments about the YI movement as a whole. One sammyp was enough, thank you.

2) To equate not shaming people for their struggle to keep mitzvos with other's flaunting of a rav's psak in the name of frumkeit is disgusting, elitist, and the height of a false equivalence. And as @Sam Finkelstein pointed out, the actual argument itself was also blatantly untrue. Shuls bar people from kibbudim all the time, for a host of reasons, and you not seeing it while you were here on vacation doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

3) Not one of you live in South Florida. Just because you vacation here or know a few snowbirds or transplants, doesn't mean you know this community or any South FL community. The fact that you are bringing up Miami , Boca, and West Palm Beach tells me you have zero clue what you're talking about, regardless of how many retirement shuls you all may have davened in. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but to have an opinion on something you know nothing about is stupidity. (Btw, look up @reed, the man you just addressed like he's some street thug.)

4) A letter went out from a conglomerate of shuls representing a variety of hashkafos in South Florida, signed by rabbis and doctors alike. It very clearly defined the stance of the majority of the frum communities in South Florida regarding the opening of shuls in accordance with local government directives and the coalition of pulpit rabbis, doctors, and poskim. This YI is not operating in a vacuum.

5) Florida is not NY. Most people here have not had the virus. We are also experiencing a huge influx of people migrating from NY and NJ who have been exposed and/or infected. As you all can attest, there have been many people who have not been as careful as they should have been after exposure/infection. There is a great fear among the local high risk population who need to source their necessities from the same places that these tourists are shopping, and the community leadership needs to address that as they see fit.

6) As @aygart said, when prominent members publicly flaunt the psak of the rov, it needs to be called out. To equate a chazzan, a baal koreh, a maggid shiur, or a board member with the rav is stupid. They are members of high visibility, and maybe even a lot of Torah knowledge in some cases, but they don't get an opinion in piskei dinim. Such public disrespect needs to be addressed, both from a community standpoint and from a halachic standpoint. If there are concerns about the psak that was made, there are proper avenues to address them. Disregarding the psak and the rav is not ok and should not be tolerated in any shul.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1802 on: May 13, 2020, 01:13:51 AM »
If the chazzan and maggid shiur of the largest Young Israel in the country are not on board, odds are you have an issue with buy in. Were the prominent members of the shul consulted/ given a voice? Or was it strong armed by one group of the shul leadership? If so, some soul searching is in order rather than a sledgehammer.

Oh common. Its not the American revolution.

They have issues in the past? Maybe.. I dunno, I don't care.

Listen, if the Rav makes a takana and yechidim decide they know better, to quote blazing saddles "luzem gayen"

What kinda junk is this. So now you're defending people who go against the Rabbi?

I'm done.

I stand b'aimah u'bepachad in front of my Rav. You guy's call me apikores when it suites you.

A Rav is a chain in mesora. You can't just pick and choose. When there was a dispute Rosh Hashanah 2 8-9 . When rabban gamliel told Rabbi yehoshua to show up on his Yom Kippur.

Listen, you remind me of the alte kakers here in Miami I knew in the 90's. They'd learn gemara on shabbas while smoking a cigarette


Offline Yard sale

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1803 on: May 13, 2020, 01:14:50 AM »
One DDF member mentions tznius. I feel it's so much worse to go against the Rav in terms of Torah.
Can’t disagree with that, provided we are talking about a kehilla with the kind of relationship with the Rav where the  Rav is the final word in all other matters of yahadus as well. The breach of that structure via rebellion with the goal of undermining the Ravs authority is far worse than any individual failure of a kehilla member, even a serious failure such as shabbos or arayos.

That does not seem to be the dynamic here.


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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1804 on: May 13, 2020, 01:19:23 AM »
I said I was going to leave this alone, but I can't.

1) To slander the Jewish communities of South Florida by painting with a broad brush about chillul shabbos and tnius, is abhorrent. To further smear the hashkafa of "their form of religion" like they're distorting Yiddishkeit is disgusting, as are the snide comments about the YI movement as a whole. One sammyp was enough, thank you.

2) To equate not shaming people for their struggle to keep mitzvos with other's flaunting of a rav's psak in the name of frumkeit is disgusting, elitist, and the height of a false equivalence. And as @Sam Finkelstein pointed out, the actual argument itself was also blatantly untrue. Shuls bar people from kibbudim all the time, for a host of reasons, and you not seeing it while you were here on vacation doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

3) Not one of you live in South Florida. Just because you vacation here or know a few snowbirds or transplants, doesn't mean you know this community or any South FL community. The fact that you are bringing up Miami , Boca, and West Palm Beach tells me you have zero clue what you're talking about, regardless of how many retirement shuls you all may have davened in. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but to have an opinion on something you know nothing about is stupidity. (Btw, look up @reed, the man you just addressed like he's some street thug.)

4) A letter went out from a conglomerate of shuls representing a variety of hashkafos in South Florida, signed by rabbis and doctors alike. It very clearly defined the stance of the majority of the frum communities in South Florida regarding the opening of shuls in accordance with local government directives and the coalition of pulpit rabbis, doctors, and poskim. This YI is not operating in a vacuum.

5) Florida is not NY. Most people here have not had the virus. We are also experiencing a huge influx of people migrating from NY and NJ who have been exposed and/or infected. As you all can attest, there have been many people who have not been as careful as they should have been after exposure/infection. There is a great fear among the local high risk population who need to source their necessities from the same places that these tourists are shopping, and the community leadership needs to address that as they see fit.

6) As @aygart said, when prominent members publicly flaunt the psak of the rov, it needs to be called out. To equate a chazzan, a baal koreh, a maggid shiur, or a board member with the rav is stupid. They are members of high visibility, and maybe even a lot of Torah knowledge in some cases, but they don't get an opinion in piskei dinim. Such public disrespect needs to be addressed, both from a community standpoint and from a halachic standpoint. If there are concerns about the psak that was made, there are proper avenues to address them. Disregarding the psak and the rav is not ok and should not be tolerated in any shul.

I can tell you this first hand.. the amount of cars I see in Miami be now with NY plates makes no sense. The snow birds should be long gone..

I know for a fact many are driving from NY.  My stance basically is, live and let die (great bond film)

But don't come here and kill us.

You want a break from NY? Stay in your vacation house and stay again..

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1805 on: May 13, 2020, 01:25:08 AM »
Oh common. Its not the American revolution.

They have issues in the past? Maybe.. I dunno, I don't care.

Listen, if the Rav makes a takana and yechidim decide they know better, to quote blazing saddles "luzem gayen"

What kinda junk is this. So now you're defending people who go against the Rabbi?

I'm done.

I stand b'aimah u'bepachad in front of my Rav. You guy's call me apikores when it suites you.

A Rav is a chain in mesora. You can't just pick and choose. When there was a dispute Rosh Hashanah 2 8-9 . When rabban gamliel told Rabbi yehoshua to show up on his Yom Kippur.

Listen, you remind me of the alte kakers here in Miami I knew in the 90's. They'd learn gemara on shabbas while smoking a cigarette

That’s great that your Rav is your mesorah and link in the chain. What makes you think the Rabbi of the young Israel is the chain in these peoples mesorah. These are retirees from across the United States and beyond. Many have personal relationships with their Rabbonim from their hometowns. There are hundreds of Rabbonim, likely many from their hometowns,  strongly urging people to make yard minyanim in an acceptably socially distant manner. Many probably have relatives making yard minyanim al pi morei horaah whose authority they recognize far more than the young Israel rabbi.

Not following the protocols of the local shul (or at least its board members who have sway?) Guilty. But throwing away the mesorah? Hardly.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 01:30:01 AM by Yard sale »

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1806 on: May 13, 2020, 01:26:10 AM »
Also here's what irks me. The elderly here have had this paradise for many years.

Now because of the pandemic, they have to be careful.

It's a chutzpah yeseiga to come from a COVid 19 hotspot and put these elderly at risk.

P.s. where were all you new Yorkers on the south Florida hatzala list?!

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1807 on: May 13, 2020, 01:29:15 AM »
What makes you think the Rabbi of the young Israel is the chain in these peoples mesorah. These are retirees from across the United States and beyond. Many have personal relationships with their Rabbonim from their hometowns. There are hundreds of Rabbonim strongly urging people to make yard minyanim in an acceptably socially distant manner.

Not following the protocols of the local shul (or at least its board members who have sway?) Guilty. But throwing away the mesorah? Hardly.

I understand where you are coming from but then it's exactly the issue.

To have people come retire here and decide it's a hefker velt?

So what about anybody that came in New York or New Jersey and decided that the local rabbanim here are just farmers and only their rabbanim in the old shtub counts.

Halacha doesn't work that way. The Rav of the time holds authority.


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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1808 on: May 13, 2020, 01:33:10 AM »
Can’t disagree with that, provided we are talking about a kehilla with the kind of relationship with the Rav where the  Rav is the final word in all other matters of yahadus as well. The breach of that structure via rebellion with the goal of undermining the Ravs authority is far worse than any individual failure of a kehilla member, even a serious failure such as shabbos or arayos.

That does not seem to be the dynamic here.

How do we know that they were even talking about locals?  We have no hotels in our area. As for the Miami beach community, I have no idea what goes on.

But don't pick and choose, halacha isn't a binary option. You sound like me, I argued that texting while driving is actually more dangerous than drinking and driving.. my friend scoffed and said it's not drink or text, you do neither

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1809 on: May 13, 2020, 01:34:03 AM »
I understand where you are coming from but then it's exactly the issue.

To have people come retire here and decide it's a hefker velt?

So what about anybody that came in New York or New Jersey and decided that the local rabbanim here are just farmers and only their rabbanim in the old shtub counts.

Halacha doesn't work that way. The Rav of the time holds authority.

You are correct in theory. In practice that is not how it is structured. My aunt in South FL still calls the Five Towns Rav with her shaylos. Hard to fault them for acting vis a vis the reality on the ground.

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1810 on: May 13, 2020, 01:43:48 AM »
You are correct in theory. In practice that is not how it is structured. My aunt in South FL still calls the Five Towns Rav with her shaylos. Hard to fault them for acting vis a vis the reality on the ground.

That's nice, meanwhile rabbanim in South Florida get no sleep as they try to keep your aunt and others alive.

It's not fair. I'm a native here, my grandparents came 40 years ago.

It's wrong to do this, no respect for Miami rabbanim, new Yorkers are here, yes we know you by your Cadillac Escalade as long as my house.


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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1811 on: May 13, 2020, 01:56:40 AM »
The other issue is that people who do respect and listen to Rabbanim are in many cases not buying that this is the Rabbanims deeply held psak. Take Lakewood where few will generally go against a unanimous psak of the 4 BMG poskim, yet I have yet to see a minyan that fully confirms to the written psak. Just about every one of them I am aware of occasionally has more than exactly ten attendees. Many are on an individuals porch etc. If you were to ask Rav Felder about going on someone’s porch (someone did a couple days ago)he will tell you not to. But people don’t feel this is a hard and fast psak that is binding. Maybe it has to do with the back a forth letters and retractions. Maybe the known politics of the pro and con camps. Maybe the fact that there are well known leaders who are not on board.

Far Rockaway and five Five Towns has a similar situation. People I know who would never disobey Rabbonim have been holding driveway/ porch minyanim throughout despite the name of their Rav appearing on the letter.

The bottom line is that many people don’t view this as a bona fide binding psak from a Rav, hence the scene that is actually occurring with the backyard minyanim. Is it possible that the dynamic was similar in Deerfield, rather than a head on thwarting of the Ravs authority?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 02:01:47 AM by Yard sale »

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1812 on: May 13, 2020, 02:58:04 AM »
The other issue is that people who do respect and listen to Rabbanim are in many cases not buying that this is the Rabbanims deeply held psak. Take Lakewood where few will generally go against a unanimous psak of the 4 BMG poskim, yet I have yet to see a minyan that fully confirms to the written psak. Just about every one of them I am aware of occasionally has more than exactly ten attendees. Many are on an individuals porch etc. If you were to ask Rav Felder about going on someone’s porch (someone did a couple days ago)he will tell you not to. But people don’t feel this is a hard and fast psak that is binding. Maybe it has to do with the back a forth letters and retractions. Maybe the known politics of the pro and con camps. Maybe the fact that there are well known leaders who are not on board.

Far Rockaway and five Five Towns has a similar situation. People I know who would never disobey Rabbonim have been holding driveway/ porch minyanim throughout despite the name of their Rav appearing on the letter.

The bottom line is that many people don’t view this as a bona fide binding psak from a Rav, hence the scene that is actually occurring with the backyard minyanim. Is it possible that the dynamic was similar in Deerfield, rather than a head on thwarting of the Ravs authority?

Do the Rabbis give a wink when they give a non bona-fine psak - just trying to figure out how people know when the Rabbi means it’s a psak psak and when it’s an eh kind of
Psak.

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1813 on: May 13, 2020, 03:10:34 AM »
I can tell you this first hand.. the amount of cars I see in Miami be now with NY plates makes no sense. The snow birds should be long gone..

I know for a fact many are driving from NY.  My stance basically is, live and let die (great bond film)

But don't come here and kill us.

You want a break from NY? Stay in your vacation house and stay again..

One of the best Bond theme songs as well.

BTW you see the videos of the lag baromer celebrations in Orlando? Just abhorrent behavior.

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1814 on: May 13, 2020, 03:15:07 AM »
Also here's what irks me. The elderly here have had this paradise for many years.

Now because of the pandemic, they have to be careful.

It's a chutzpah yeseiga to come from a COVid 19 hotspot and put these elderly at risk.

P.s. where were all you new Yorkers on the south Florida hatzala list?!

It’s absolutely selfish and disgusting behavior but unfortunately not surprising. (This is from a NYer with a condo on Collins avenue - and I still wouldn’t think of making the trip down for the foreseeable future.)

Offline avromie7

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1815 on: May 13, 2020, 07:33:47 AM »
You are correct in theory. In practice that is not how it is structured. My aunt in South FL still calls the Five Towns Rav with her shaylos. Hard to fault them for acting vis a vis the reality on the ground.
The same thing happens all over, I live in Lakewood, but I don't call the Lakewood rabannim when I have a shaila. But when you live in a community and the community rabbi(s) give a psak that affects the entire community you listen. I didn't call my rav to ask him if I should daven with a minyan, I followed the Lakewood psak.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1816 on: May 13, 2020, 07:52:04 AM »
The other issue is that people who do respect and listen to Rabbanim are in many cases not buying that this is the Rabbanims deeply held psak. Take Lakewood where few will generally go against a unanimous psak of the 4 BMG poskim, yet I have yet to see a minyan that fully confirms to the written psak. Just about every one of them I am aware of occasionally has more than exactly ten attendees. Many are on an individuals porch etc. If you were to ask Rav Felder about going on someone’s porch (someone did a couple days ago)he will tell you not to. But people don’t feel this is a hard and fast psak that is binding. Maybe it has to do with the back a forth letters and retractions. Maybe the known politics of the pro and con camps. Maybe the fact that there are well known leaders who are not on board.

Far Rockaway and five Five Towns has a similar situation. People I know who would never disobey Rabbonim have been holding driveway/ porch minyanim throughout despite the name of their Rav appearing on the letter.

The bottom line is that many people don’t view this as a bona fide binding psak from a Rav, hence the scene that is actually occurring with the backyard minyanim. Is it possible that the dynamic was similar in Deerfield, rather than a head on thwarting of the Ravs authority?
I am not saying that people are correct. I think that people that always daven with a Minyan are finding it difficult to daven alone. It is a hergesh thing, not against Rabbanim, but still wrong.

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1817 on: May 13, 2020, 08:02:56 AM »
There are hundreds of Rabbonim, likely many from their hometowns,  strongly urging people to make yard minyanim in an acceptably socially distant manner.

Say WHAT?

I haven't seen any letter urging anyone to make a minyan. Maybe if you would have worded it "urging those making yard minyanim to do so in an acceptably socially distant manner." There would be some veracity to it (though it might wake up @Yehuda57 for grammatical reasons). But while I have heard of Rabbonim giving private guidelines to porch/yard minyanim while their public stance was against ALL minyanim, I doubt anyone with any Halachic authority would URGE making such minyanim, if only due to the problem of לועג לרש.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1818 on: May 13, 2020, 09:12:25 AM »
Say WHAT?

I haven't seen any letter urging anyone to make a minyan. Maybe if you would have worded it "urging those making yard minyanim to do so in an acceptably socially distant manner." There would be some veracity to it (though it might wake up @Yehuda57 for grammatical reasons). But while I have heard of Rabbonim giving private guidelines to porch/yard minyanim while their public stance was against ALL minyanim, I doubt anyone with any Halachic authority would URGE making such minyanim, if only due to the problem of לועג לרש.

I think the reason these rabbonm aren't urging you to make minyonim,  As they see it as no question You definitely have to

I spoke to three prominent from rabbonim in BP and Willi that were so upset about the anti-minyonim complete  ban movement...

Also I think there was a letter from Rabbi Wachtfogel

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Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1819 on: May 13, 2020, 09:25:26 AM »
I think the reason these rabbonm aren't urging you to make minyonim,  As they see it as no question You definitely have to

I spoke to three prominent from rabbonim in BP and Willi that were so upset about the anti-minyonim complete  ban movement...

Also I think there was a letter from Rabbi Wachtfogel

Rabbi Wachtfogel is the tip of the iceberg. In Lakewood...