Author Topic: Corona virus and your shul  (Read 368863 times)

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17407
  • Total likes: 14343
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1980 on: May 17, 2020, 03:02:10 PM »
smart and safe reopening of Lakewood
But what is "smart and safe"?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1981 on: May 17, 2020, 03:07:55 PM »
But what is "smart and safe"?
The million dollar question
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Online etech0

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 12864
  • Total likes: 3322
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: not lakewood
  • Programs: DDF
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1982 on: May 17, 2020, 03:08:29 PM »
The million dollar question
3 trillion :)
Workflowy. You won't know what you're missing until you try it.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67601
  • Total likes: 16913
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1983 on: May 17, 2020, 03:14:08 PM »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Online ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15640
  • Total likes: 7726
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1984 on: May 17, 2020, 03:14:32 PM »
Because this worked so well when we tried it Purim time.

Somehow the same people who were saying to do this then are saying the same thing now without batting an eye from all those who died as a result of those few weeks. How many people fit into the "higher risk" category? I spoke with a Rov who asked some random people in his kehilla and was surpiised to find that close to half would be consdidered higher risk. That is probably lower among 20-30 year olds than his kehilla which is mostly around 40, but would make sense for the typical school parent body considering that there are plenty of 55 year old "old fogies" who still have elementary school age children.

I think there's a big difference between Purim and now. I don't know about Lakewood, but in Crown Heights the consensus is that the vast majority of the community has already been exposed (possibly extensively exposed) to the virus. Whoever didn't get sick (or got sick and recovered) isn't likely to get sick from this virus in any dangerous way. The local doctors are eager to have shuls and schools reopened. If it were legally possible, they would find a way to do it.

At this point quite a few Rabbonim feel that it is a sfek-sfek-sfeika no more dangerous than other activities that result in unfortunate deaths, and don't feel the closing of schools and shuls is justified.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Online EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 2865
  • Total likes: 3467
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1985 on: May 17, 2020, 03:15:27 PM »
https://col.org.il/news/124786
An unnoticed piece here, but what a great question. At what point will we start thinking of the risk of our boys and bucharim going for months without Yeshiva (and without zoom in the frum areas) should be a factor too. Phone conferences for few hours is not equating to full day yeshiva at all. We, the dor yasom, are challenged with the greatest dilemmas.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 67601
  • Total likes: 16913
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1986 on: May 17, 2020, 03:17:07 PM »
An unnoticed piece here, but what a great question. At what point will we start thinking of the risk of our boys and bucharim going for months without Yeshiva (and without zoom in the frum areas) should be a factor too. Phone conferences for few hours is not equating to full day yeshiva at all. We, the dor yasom, are challenged with the greatest dilemmas.
Who isn't thinking about this?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1987 on: May 17, 2020, 03:17:39 PM »
An unnoticed piece here, but what a great question. At what point will we start thinking of the risk of our boys and bucharim going for months without Yeshiva (and without zoom in the frum areas) should be a factor too. Phone conferences for few hours is not equating to full day yeshiva at all. We, the dor yasom, are challenged with the greatest dilemmas.
This is literally one of the biggest questions we are all trying to answer by reopening..
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Online EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 2865
  • Total likes: 3467
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1988 on: May 17, 2020, 03:18:33 PM »
Who isn't thinking about this?
No, I'm talking of taking action.

Offline S209

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2016
  • Posts: 7469
  • Total likes: 3930
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Gowns By Shevy
  • Location: Lakewood
  • Programs: Marriott Gold, Star Alliance Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hertz PC, National EE, Rock Royalty Wild Card, Wyndham Diamond, MLife Gold, Caesars Diamond, Hilton Diamond, Uber VIP, IHG Platinum Elite, ANA Platinum, DDF Lifetime Prez Platinum Elite, AmEx Platinum
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1989 on: May 17, 2020, 03:20:05 PM »
No, I'm talking of taking action.
What does taking action mean? There is a very tough decision that needs to be made safely and responsibly, weighing the extreme needs on both ends. You can’t sacrifice lives because you decided you need to “take action”. They are parts of a very complex question with many factors.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Online ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15640
  • Total likes: 7726
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1990 on: May 17, 2020, 03:20:14 PM »
An unnoticed piece here, but what a great question. At what point will we start thinking of the risk of our boys and bucharim going for months without Yeshiva (and without zoom in the frum areas) should be a factor too. Phone conferences for few hours is not equating to full day yeshiva at all. We, the dor yasom, are challenged with the greatest dilemmas.

And what about poor children that have a very difficult time learning on the phone and staying undistracted? Many need visual and other methods in order to learn properly.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Online EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 2865
  • Total likes: 3467
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1991 on: May 17, 2020, 03:21:33 PM »
What does taking action mean? There is a very tough decision that needs to be made safely and responsibly, weighing the extreme needs on both ends. You can’t sacrifice lives because you decided you need to “take action”. They are parts of a very complex question with many factors.
Hence
We, the dor yasom, are challenged with the greatest dilemmas.
In Brooklyn, where most of the shuls are operating fully anyway, with police turning a blind eye, perhaps reopen the yeshivas too.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 03:24:36 PM by EliJelly »

Online etech0

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 12864
  • Total likes: 3322
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: not lakewood
  • Programs: DDF
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1992 on: May 17, 2020, 03:21:46 PM »
And what about poor children that have a very difficult time learning on the phone and staying undistracted? Many need visual and other methods in order to learn properly.
Not to mention the difference between 45 minutes and 6 hours
Workflowy. You won't know what you're missing until you try it.

Online ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15640
  • Total likes: 7726
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1993 on: May 17, 2020, 03:22:58 PM »
What does taking action mean? There is a very tough decision that needs to be made safely and responsibly, weighing the extreme needs on both ends. You can’t sacrifice lives because you decided you need to “take action”. They are parts of a very complex question with many factors.

Let the doctors and Rabbonim in each community decide on their criteria, and issue bracelets to those that fit the criteria (and will sign a commitment to adhere to certain protocols, as well as a waiver accepting personal responsibility) and allow anyone with a bracelet to fully integrate into society (shuls and schools).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17407
  • Total likes: 14343
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1994 on: May 17, 2020, 03:25:19 PM »
I think there's a big difference between Purim and now. I don't know about Lakewood, but in Crown Heights the consensus is that the vast majority of the community has already been exposed (possibly extensively exposed) to the virus. Whoever didn't get sick (or got sick and recovered) isn't likely to get sick from this virus in any dangerous way. The local doctors are eager to have shuls and schools reopened. If it were legally possible, they would find a way to do it.

At this point quite a few Rabbonim feel that it is a sfek-sfek-sfeika no more dangerous than other activities that result in unfortunate deaths, and don't feel the closing of schools and shuls is justified.
Consensus, feel, eager. Does anyone have facts to back them up?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Luvtotravel

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 3014
  • Total likes: 131
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Ny
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1995 on: May 17, 2020, 03:26:55 PM »
Consensus, feel, eager. Does anyone have facts to back them up?
there have been non social distanced groups since pesach where i live with not a single reported new covid case and certainly no serious ones.
Don't wait for the perfect moment; take the moment and make it perfect.

Online EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 2865
  • Total likes: 3467
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1996 on: May 17, 2020, 03:27:43 PM »
Consensus, feel, eager. Does anyone have facts to back them up?
To much at stake to wait for hard facts. When Doctors say something is an extreme likelyhood, that should be enough at some point. Especially when facts on the ground speak for themselves.

Online ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15640
  • Total likes: 7726
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1997 on: May 17, 2020, 03:30:10 PM »
Consensus, feel, eager. Does anyone have facts to back them up?

Yes. They surveyed the community several times.

I honestly think the situation in Crown Heights (and probably in other Jewish communities around NYC) is very different than in EY.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17407
  • Total likes: 14343
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1998 on: May 17, 2020, 03:34:21 PM »
Let the doctors and Rabbonim in each community decide on their criteria, and issue bracelets to those that fit the criteria (and will sign a commitment to adhere to certain protocols, as well as a waiver accepting personal responsibility) and allow anyone with a bracelet to fully integrate into society (shuls and schools).

Honestly I do think that there are ways to possibly open things up along these lines, but there is really one thing which keeps showing me that it would be foolhardy to expect compliance. That is the so many are so free to accept any fuzzy math, cherry-picked data, unadulterated speculation, proven false information and the like to push what they prefer with total disregard to cost of lives. At first they were saying it was a total nothing now the same people quote from the same agenda driven sources that it past. This is not nearly everyone advocating for shuls to re-open, but enough to easily unermine any safety guidelines implemented.

These people are having a total opposite affect on me.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Yard sale

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jun 2018
  • Posts: 900
  • Total likes: 471
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Corona virus and your shul
« Reply #1999 on: May 17, 2020, 03:47:17 PM »
Honestly I do think that there are ways to possibly open things up along these lines, but there is really one thing which keeps showing me that it would be foolhardy to expect compliance. That is the so many are so free to accept any fuzzy math, cherry-picked data, unadulterated speculation, proven false information and the like to push what they prefer with total disregard to cost of lives. At first they were saying it was a total nothing now the same people quote from the same agenda driven sources that it past. This is not nearly everyone advocating for shuls to re-open, but enough to easily unermine any safety guidelines implemented.

These people are having a total opposite affect on me.

 That is a valid argument in a vacuum but this is far from a zero cost decision either way. You have kids that are severely struggling in school on the phone, more than a few of which will become  tomorrow’s kids at risk. There are severe parnassa issues many of which threaten to become long-term problems further impacting families. There are special needs kids who’s families are suffering. There are ruchniyus tragedies that are unfolding as people remain isolated from their shuls, Kehillos, and yeshivos (ask guardyoureyes for just one small aspect of the problem). Ask Moishy D. of TAG how many Netfix accounts they have had to open. Remember at the beginning of this machala when some foolish people said it’s no big deal not realizing that all the data was two weeks behind until that horrific motzai shabbos came? That is what we are beginning to deal with. It will be months from now before we grasp the enormity of what is hitting the community, and perhaps years for the effects to become fully apparent. The roshei yeshivos have a lot more than peoples itch to get out and have a good time on their minds.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 04:23:04 PM by Yard sale »