Corona virus and your shul

[Kobe Bryant]

But will it stay that way?

if NY is any indicator our Healthcare system is not going to be overwhelmed!

[Sam Finkelstein]

To have a plan and communicate it well. I've written that many times here. When Murphy does nothing but discuss Murphy's Law it makes him irrelevant.

What sort of plan should he have, if no one actually knows anything?

[Kobe Bryant]

What plan would you implement to curtail all of the problems raised with reopening? What criteria, what precautions, what type of enforcement?

What many people seem to be overlooking is that "Indefinite lockdown" is not a feasible solution, those advocating for it can scream from their rooftops or nuclear bunkers, the american people simply won't stomach it.     

[ExGingi]

I wrote out a post about Hatzalah but didn’t post it because they are fantastic people who deserve a lot of respect from us and it would be perceived as sharp criticism. All I’ll say is, Hatzalah do not know as much as doctors.

Did he test for antibodies?

1. My cousin did quote the most prominent doctor in Crown Heights.

2. I don't think he tested for antibodies, but when we brought up the topic, the discussion went to how unreliable those tests are. As I might have mentioned earlier. There are people who were sick that tested negative for antibodies. People who were heavily exposed to the virus (i.e. living in the same household with someone that tested positive and didn't maintain any distancing) that tested negative. Etc. Etc. While the tests are all science has now, what many people (including doctors) feel is that if there was a significant exposure, especially with symptoms, there's probably no benefit to maintaining the distancing of the population that has already been exposed. The vulnerable population that wasn't exposed needs to maintain distancing/isolation.

[avromie7]

But will it stay that way?

I think we'll have much more warning between infinitely more testing capacity, a portion of the population being immune, better treatment protocols, and social distancing at least to some degree that will be around for a very long time especially for people who are at high risk.

[S209]

Would definitely explain the uptick in suicides.

Suicide is a free choice. Man grabs a gun and shoot himself in the head. If he’s comfortable and the gun is comfortable, why should the government get in the way, right?

This basically sums it up.

Also, has there been an uptick in suicides lately anywhere?

[S209]

1. My cousin did quote the most prominent doctor in Crown Heights.

2. I don't think he tested for antibodies, but when we brought up the topic, the discussion went to how unreliable those tests are. As I might have mentioned earlier. There are people who were sick that tested negative for antibodies. People who were heavily exposed to the virus (i.e. living in the same household with someone that tested positive and didn't maintain any distancing) that tested negative. Etc. Etc. While the tests are all science has now, what many people (including doctors) feel is that if there was a significant exposure, especially with symptoms, there's probably no benefit to maintaining the distancing of the population that has already been exposed. The vulnerable population that wasn't exposed needs to maintain distancing/isolation.

Source for doctors who believe people who were exposed won’t catch it? There have been theories bandied about but I have yet to see a doctor say something of the sort. Also, there ARE antibody tests that are very accurate out there.

Does every member of a household with someone who has the flu catch the flu? No. Does that mean they’re now immune from the flu forever? Also no. Something can be contagious without everyone automatically catching it from everyone who has that illness.

[avromie7]

Source for doctors who believe people who were exposed won’t catch it? There have been theories bandied about but I have yet to see a doctor say something of the sort. Also, there ARE antibody tests that are very accurate out there.

Does every member of a household with someone who has the flu catch the flu? No. Does that mean they’re now immune from the flu forever? Also no. Something can be contagious without everyone automatically catching it from everyone who has that illness.

As @aygart said, analogies are straw man arguements, there are many differences between coronavirus and the flu.

Regardless, if getting it doesnt mean immunity then there can't be a vaccine and this will last forever. Lockdown can just end today because nothing can ever change.

[S209]

What’s clear is that a large part of many issues we discuss is people have very rigid black and white ways of looking at things without being able to see gray areas in between. Perhaps that’s why everything has become politicized, and everything that’s political must be so hyper-partisan.

Derech Haemtzai is always the way to go, but we’ve found a way to always make derech haemtzai fit our preconceived way of doing things.

Locking down everyone completely indefinitely by a tyrannical government against all evidence for a flu-like illness is extreme. Keeping everything open in the face of an Ebola-like illness for the sake of “the economy” is also extreme. Figuring out how to keep our country up and functioning as best as we can while taking necessary precautions to combat the extreme spread of the current coronavirus is the middle ground. Can we all agree on that much?

[S209]

As @aygart said, analogies are straw man arguements, there are many differences between coronavirus and the flu.

Regardless, if getting it doesnt mean immunity then there can't be a vaccine and this will last forever. Lockdown can just end today because nothing can ever change.

Yet you’re making a straw man in the very same post. JUST LIKE THE FLU, one can presumably be exposed yet not automatically become infected. JUST LIKE THE FLU, that does NOT mean there can’t be immunity and a vaccine. Again, things are not black and white like that. Here is your reasoning.

Someone was exposed to the virus.
If they didn’t already get it, they must be immune.
Otherwise, there must be no such thing as immunity, so a vaccine can never be made, so let’s end the lockdown immediately.

Does that logic work?

[avromie7]

Yet you’re making a straw man in the very same post. JUST LIKE THE FLU, one can presumably be exposed yet not automatically become infected. JUST LIKE THE FLU, that does NOT mean there can’t be immunity and a vaccine. Again, things are not black and white like that. Here is your reasoning.

Someone was exposed to the virus.
If they didn’t already get it, they must be immune.
Otherwise, there must be no such thing as immunity, so a vaccine can never be made, so let’s end the lockdown immediately.

Does that logic work?

That's absolutely not what I said. Go back and read my post again.

[aygart]

Source for doctors who believe people who were exposed won’t catch it? There have been theories bandied about but I have yet to see a doctor say something of the sort. Also, there ARE antibody tests that are very accurate out there.

Does every member of a household with someone who has the flu catch the flu? No. Does that mean they’re now immune from the flu forever? Also no. Something can be contagious without everyone automatically catching it from everyone who has that illness.

What about a specific strain of the flu?

[S209]

That's absolutely not what I said. Go back and read my post again.

You responded to a post of mine, go back and read what you were responding to as far as the flu analogy

[avromie7]

You responded to a post of mine, go back and read what you were responding to as far as the flu analogy

I misread your post, but you misread mine too. I said if getting it doesn't mean immunity while you were talking about people who were exposed but didn't get it.

[S209]

What about a specific strain of the flu?

Sure. Just because something is contagious does not mean every interaction will spread the virus, although the more sustained interactions with more contagious persons the higher the chances. There are many factors in spread, some unknown and some known.

[Kobe Bryant]

Suicide is a free choice. Man grabs a gun and shoot himself in the head. If he’s comfortable and the gun is comfortable, why should the government get in the way, right?

Also, has there been an uptick in suicides lately anywhere?

So we dont even factor in people who suffer from mental health and are committing suicide as a consequence of being lockdown, as part of our public policy risk assessment?

Also GIYF.

[S209]

So we dont even factor in people who suffer from mental health and are committing suicide as a consequence of being lockdown, as part of our public policy risk assessment?

Also GIYF.

Do we factor in people who will die as a result of going to stores which are open so they think it’s fine? Seems a leap less far fetched than suicide, which is at best a wild guess. At least with suicide they are making the educated choice to die.

I haven’t been able to find any significant uptick in suicide, please post a link.

[ari3]

https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1861614/watch-it-cuomo-says-shuls-can-open-for-shavuos-with-15-people-and-social-distancing.html

Hopefully NJ is next. I hear there is a lot of pressure behind the scenes being put on Gov Murphy

[etech0]

'possibly'

[ari3]

'possibly'

The headline is misleading but he did sat he will have an answer in the next day or two