Corona virus and your shul

[Jellybelly]

I don’t even understand it. What possible reason could someone have for wanting people indoors? To what end?

Maybe it has more to do with not wanted to lend out sifrei Torah especially for outdoor use. I know some shuls that didn’t let any be used outside at all. So maybe the shul only let when it was impossible to have a minyan indoors
#ayintova

[skyguy918]

This thing is over an hour long. Maybe point us to some relevant timestamps?

Relevant portions starts around 1:05:00.

...the best part is how he succinctly explains that everyone yearning to reopen Shuls is purely out of restlessness and no basis In Halacha or science.

If you look at the article I posted previously, he is specifically referring to shuls, not the broader lockdown and safe ways of having outlets from the lockdown
https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/957191/rabbi-mayer-e-twersky/the-prohibition-to-conduct-minyanim-and-other-gatherings-in-america-at-this-time/

He appears to be talking very specifically to the idea that everyone agrees we shouldn't be doing this, but people are restless, so better to give structure/guidelines to it. And to that idea he says halacha requires discipline, etc. I don't think this is even close to the reality of what's going on out there. The places opening up are by and large doing so because they feel it is now safe enough to do so within their guidelines.

[S209]

Maybe it has more to do with not wanted to lend out sifrei Torah especially for outdoor use. I know some shuls that didn’t let any be used outside at all. So maybe the shul only let when it was impossible to have a minyan indoors
#ayintova

That’s definitely a positive way of looking at it but doesn’t really jibe with the description

One place I know of stopped lending out Sifrei Torah to Yard minyanim to force the last few holdouts who would otherwise use his place during the week, indoors. I guess it’s his sifrei torah but really doesn’t sit well with me. You may not agree with the guy that doesn’t want to go indoors but respect his right to make the decision that is comfortable for him even if he isn’t high risk.

[Yard sale]

That’s definitely a positive way of looking at it but doesn’t really jibe with the description

 My fault.I should have been clearer. I am not aware of his motivation. They briefly went into his place but some of the participants were nervous and insisted on taking it outside again.  The minyanim deferred to them and they resumed the outdoor Minyanim. At that point he stopped lending out the sifrei torah, pretty much forcing the issue. His motive may well have been as Jellybelly said.

[S209]

My fault.I should have been clearer. I am not aware of his motivation. They briefly went into his place but some of the participants were nervous and insisted on taking it outside again.  The minyanim deferred to them and they resumed the outdoor Minyanim. At that point he stopped lending out the sifrei torah, pretty much forcing the issue. His motive may well have been as Jellybelly said.

Thanks for clarifying. I didn’t understand what would motivate someone to force others to daven indoors.

[aygart]

Great shuir by Rav Meir Twerski but the best part is how he succinctly explains that everyone yearning to reopen Shuls is purely out of restlessness and no basis In Halacha or science.

https://www.torahweb.org/audio/rtwe_052420_video.html

If there would be leaders actually discussing realistic timelines based on science then maybe people would be able to make decisions on that basis. When we see very clearly that the politicians are doing what they do best and playing politics with every step of the way here it makes it very difficult.

[aygart]

One place I know of stopped lending out Sifrei Torah to Yard minyanim to force the last few holdouts who would otherwise use his place during the week, indoors. I guess it’s his sifrei torah but really doesn’t sit well with me. You may not agree with the guy that doesn’t want to go indoors but respect his right to make the decision that is comfortable for him even if he isn’t high risk.

I saw the same basic idea when someone cleared out a basement to make a minyan with precautions instead of going to a basement shul on the block where the owner very specifically said that he is not taking any precautions.

[ExGingi]

As of tomorrow, further easing in Israel



Waiting for Askanim in NY to review this with the medical community and come to the governor with similar recommendations.

[Sam Finkelstein]

Waiting for Askanim in NY to review this with the medical community and come to the governor with similar recommendations.

They're insane. Every minyan in my shul was fully booked minutes after the email went out.

[Kobe Bryant]

.....I left out a few

In response to this:
TL;DR - Government should stay out of our business and just protect at risk populations. Everyone else, maybe take some precautions, maybe don't, that's on you. Death is inevitable, as is ending stay-at-home measures, so since we take acceptable risks every day like driving cars, let 'er rip.

How is what I said not what your position is? Save the indignation.

when quoted in context i stand by my posts.
but that's neither here nor there.

Here's an overshare for you: I worked in buying and selling concert tickets. My industry is gone, and will take forever to come back. When it does, I won't be in it. I have a ridiculous amount of debt because of the business, and if not for mortgage deferment programs, I'd be well on my way to losing my house. I have 2 sisters who work with special needs kids in NY, so I'm well aware of the struggles there. Cancer... my FIL just finished chemo for his third type of cancer, and is lucky to have finished when he did, so I'm not insensitive to that, either. As I've shared previously, I had the wonderful experience of having a baby during this time, with other kids in the house all day, and the only family to help is said high-risk FIL. All of the mental health stuff? I think we've covered enough of that. I get that people don't know these things about me when I post, and I may come off and cold and uncaring. I hope this puts my opinions into some sort of perspective.

I share and echo a lot of the sentiment that @Yehuda57 has been saying on this.
I for one have never once assumed you are making an argument with ill intent, but rather presume that you are truly passionate and believe that your way of going about this will ultimately save the most lives... i never once thought "he doesn't care about all those who have lost their life savings and small businesses and went from being respected members of the community to having to ask for handouts or about those who have cancer and had a lifesaving surgery pushed off indefinitely and may die or all those who have committed suicide (insert the rest here)" . So when i see that you continue promulgating this abhorrent vile and morally despicable notion that those who disagree with you on whats the best for this country have a disregard for human life, i draw a line. If someone were to attack your views with the same moral superiority i would defend you in the same manner.
on a personal level, MT on the baby, I wish nothing but the best for you and your family and b"eh you will see nothing but success.

[Lurker]

i never once thought "he doesn't care about all those who have lost their life savings and small businesses and went from being respected members of the community to having to ask for handouts or about those who have cancer and had a lifesaving surgery pushed off indefinitely and may die or all those who have committed suicide (insert the rest here)" .

Responses to me:

I would like to think that we will stop calling those that think that we should return to some semblance of normalcy "Selfish Money hungry murderers", but unfortunately i think that many will disagree with me in the name of virtue signaling while posting videos from their marble bathtub as a grand piano is being played or smoking cigars in a Jacuzzi tucked away in some Malibu mansion while offering no alternatives.

I know that being thats it's so contagious, logic dictates that if both parents have had Covid19 its safe to assume that all the children in the household have had it as well even if they are asymptomatic.

Can't say i know much about Kawasaki.

Like you said you get to make decisions for your family alone so feel free to stay at home forever. Im glad you can afford to do that, while millions are suffering from hunger, mental illnesses, severe depression, and suicide from being sheltered in a small space and losing their income and life savings.
Once again another post dripping with condescension and highlights those who think that anyone who has a different POV is "selfish and doesn't care about human life".

This one wasn't to me, but this wasn't exactly fair to @S209, either:

Great point, why don't you ask yourself , How will millions of unemployed Americans living paycheck to paycheck afford to buy groceries?
Don't take this the wrong way but saying "I’m talking in another month or two" tells me your way out of touch with the real world on this issue.

The easiest thing for those of us that BH haven't been affected by this Virus directly or indirectly is to sit back and say "lets keep up this Lockdown"

[Kobe Bryant]

when quoted in context i stand by my posts.
but that's neither here nor there.I share and echo a lot of the sentiment that @Yehuda57 has been saying on this.
I for one have never once assumed you are making an argument with ill intent, but rather presume that you are truly passionate and believe that your way of going about this will ultimately save the most lives... i never once thought "he doesn't care about all those who have lost their life savings and small businesses and went from being respected members of the community to having to ask for handouts or about those who have cancer and had a lifesaving surgery pushed off indefinitely and may die or all those who have committed suicide (insert the rest here)" . So when i see that you continue promulgating this abhorrent vile and morally despicable notion that those who disagree with you on whats the best for this country have a disregard for human life, i draw a line. If someone were to attack your views with the same moral superiority i would defend you in the same manner.
on a personal level, MT on the baby, I wish nothing but the best for you and your family and b"eh you will see nothing but success.

I would like to think that kids c'"v dying would make the economy become a non-issue, but unfortunately I feel like there are many who will disagree with me in the name of objectivity and the world's greater good.

I would like to think that we will stop calling those that think that we should return to some semblance of normalcy "Selfish Money hungry murderers", but unfortunately i think that many will disagree with me in the name of virtue signaling while posting videos from their marble bathtub as a grand piano is being played or smoking cigars in a Jacuzzi tucked away in some Malibu mansion while offering no alternatives.

Presumably millions? What are you smoking? Where are you getting your numbers from? How many children do you know that have been tested? Do you think Kawasaki is a hoax? Lies?

Nothing is on me. I'm just a guy, sitting at home, trying to keep my family safe. I get to make decisions for my family alone, and no one else. I also get to ask people why they think it's ok to use excuses like "the economy" to "go back to normal," when all they want to do is travel the world with their family while thousands of people lay dying every day from this thing we don't quite understand yet.

I know that being thats it's so contagious, logic dictates that if both parents have had Covid19 its safe to assume that all the children in the household have had it as well even if they are asymptomatic.

Can't say i know much about Kawasaki.

Like you said you get to make decisions for your family alone so feel free to stay at home forever. Im glad you can afford to do that, while millions are suffering from hunger, mental illnesses, severe depression, and suicide from being sheltered in a small space and losing their income and life savings.
Once again another post dripping with condescension and highlights those who think that anyone who has a different POV is "selfish and doesn't care about human life".

You sift through my posts like Moveon.org does on Sean Hannity, and are just as disingenuous. And for that reason im out.

As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped

[Lurker]

im out.

As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped

+1

Thanks for the good wishes, best of luck on the world tour.

[S209]

@Kobe bryent Is it fair to say you are standing on the graves of those impacted by the shutdown to virtue signal for reopening our economy, or does it only work one way?

[S209]

Gabbai of a Shul in my neighborhood told me he spoke with a very prominent doctor in Lakewood for over an hour last night about reopening the Shul for Shavuos (they hadn’t opened before). The doctor told him that it’s his strong personal opinion and the opinion of a large majority of doctor in Lakewood (with a few exceptions) that the Shuls should not be reopening yet, certainly not to the extent many are, but they were overruled some Rabbanim on a conference call with doctors and Rabbanim last week.

This is just a DP with no opinion content, as usual.

[aygart]

Gabbai of a Shul in my neighborhood told me he spoke with a very prominent doctor in Lakewood for over an hour last night about reopening the Shul for Shavuos (they hadn’t opened before). The doctor told him that it’s his strong personal opinion and the opinion of a large majority of doctor in Lakewood (with a few exceptions) that the Shuls should not be reopening yet, certainly not to the extent many are, but they were overruled some Rabbanim on a conference call with doctors and Rabbanim last week.

This is just a DP with no opinion content, as usual.

One thing a Rov, similar to a parent, needs to think through is what will potential end results be of taking the full hard line stance even if it is correct.

[S209]

One thing a Rov, similar to a parent, needs to think through is what will potential end results be of taking the full hard line stance even if it is correct.

Correct. I’m not saying that a Rav shouldn’t be able to decide what to do once the doctors provide the necessary information- in fact, I think they definitely should.

I do want to point out that doctors are also trained to keep in mind potential adverse ramifications. That’s why they DON’T always tell us to hunker down on the chance we get into a car accident or contract the flu. They may be apt to be more cautious but they are intelligent and reasonable people who factor other things in as well.

It irks me a little when people suggest that doctors would have us sit at home all day just to prevent the slightest chance of getting sick. Completely false, and that is why we trust doctors to make many decisions for us. They are also weighing pros and cons, but they understand the cons more than most. Maybe that’s why they’re seen as more cautious..

[chevron]

I'm not sure if I'm going to go but these are the protocols here

We are happy to inform you that B'ezras Hashem, we will be opening the Shul for Phase 1 starting Shavuous. There will be another email regarding Minyanim for after Shavuous.

The mandated guidelines that we must follow to begin reopening in a responsible and safe fashion, without unnecessary risk to ourselves and the community, must be stringently adhered to for the immediate future, until such a time that we will be able to slowly and effectively relax the restrictions accordingly. In addition, as we discussed, this is all in the spirit of Pikuach Nefesh.

Below is a list of the regulations that have been formulated by our physicians and community leaders.

It is understandable that everyone has different opinions and levels of adherence in their homes, however, we ask that you respect the standards that we are setting forth with regards to the safety of the community. Anyone who cannot respect the rules, we kindly ask that you stay home.

We will be having a number of Minyanim to be able to accommodate most of our community. Since we will have limited attendance capacity during each Minyan due to the required social distancing, pre-registration is mandatory and will be only for regular attendees. Anyone who is not registered, will be denied entry.

REGULATIONS FOR OPENING,

1. No one should come to Shul if they have any of the following conditions:
    a. Unwell - even slightly (fever, coughing, shortness of breath, sore throat, or sniffling)
    b. Anyone that has been exposed to someone with COVID-19 within the last 14 days is a possible carrier
    c. Anyone who is experiencing loss of taste or smell (potential symptoms of COVID-19)
    d. Anyone who has traveled in the last 14 days
    e. Anyone who has any underlying health issues that puts him at greater risk (e.g. heart disease, diabetes, immune-compromised, respiratory issues, obesity, etc.)
    f. Adults over 65 - this group has shown the greatest susceptibility to the virus. Please consult your physician to ensure that it is prudent and advisable for you to attend. Your health and safety are of paramount importance.
2. While in Shul, masks MUST be worn at all times. No exceptions. As supplies are limited, please bring your own mask.
3. Everyone must disinfect their hands before entering Shul, using the hand sanitizers provided.
4. Everyone must bring their own Tallis and Siddur to Shul, to limit cross-contamination.
5. While in Shul, everyone needs to maintain a 10-foot distance from anyone not part of their quarantined family. We will arrange the seats to ensure that this is complied with.
6. Children under Bar/Bat Mitzvah are not permitted in Shul at this time.
7. No Kiddushim will be held.
8. No food or drink of any kind may be brought into the Shul.
9. No congregating outside before or after Davening.

Please understand that while we are reopening the Shul, this does NOT compel you to attend. Your health is the TOP priority. If you are the least bit uncomfortable being in an environment with others, you are Halachically not required to attend. Please stay home until you feel comfortable.

In order to be able to adhere to the Social Distancing guidelines, we will need to severely limit the number of congregants in any room.

Please select from the following options below to register for a Minyan (the Minyan you select will be for both days of Yom Tov).

6:30am Shachris FOR 60 & OLDER ONLY - in the main Shul - click HERE
8:30am Shachris - in the main Shul - click HERE
8:30am Shachris - in the Lobby - click HERE
10:45am Shachris - in the main Shul - click HERE
10:45am Shachris - in the Lobby - click HERE
8:30am Shachris - WOMEN'S SECTION in the main Shul - click HERE
10:45am Shachris - WOMEN'S SECTION in the main Shul - click HERE

8:30pm Maariv Thursday night - in the main Shul - click HERE
8:00pm Mincha/Maariv Friday and Shabbos afternoon - in the main Shul - click HERE

[avromie7]

Correct. I’m not saying that a Rav shouldn’t be able to decide what to do once the doctors provide the necessary information- in fact, I think they definitely should.

I do want to point out that doctors are also trained to keep in mind potential adverse ramifications. That’s why they DON’T always tell us to hunker down on the chance we get into a car accident or contract the flu. They may be apt to be more cautious but they are intelligent and reasonable people who factor other things in as well.

It irks me a little when people suggest that doctors would have us sit at home all day just to prevent the slightest chance of getting sick. Completely false, and that is why we trust doctors to make many decisions for us. They are also weighing pros and cons, but they understand the cons more than most. Maybe that’s why they’re seen as more cautious..

Doctors have a CYA mentality, for the same reason they routinely reccomend unnecessary tests so they don't get sued they'll also reccomend lockdown.

[S209]

Doctors have a CYA mentality, for the same reason they routinely reccomend unnecessary tests so they don't get sued they'll also reccomend lockdown.

They often do tend towards that mentality (for good reason) but the doctors I ask questions to let me live my life, not predicting doom and gloom.